Buying some planes.

[Slim]

Hi everyone.

Having had a few moments on previous projects where I have thought to myself I needed some decent planes, I have decided to have a look at car boot sales and ebay for some decent second hand ones.

I know that the newer stanley and record planes are not too well thought of nowadays. My question is what age of plane should I look at to get a decent tool for these two makes.

Also what other makes should I be looking at second hand? (Definately cant afford the likes of LN and Veritas)

I am after a no.4, 5 and 7. and a block plane.

Many thanks in advance

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Slimjim,

If I were starting out again, knowing what I know now, I would try a different approach. That would be to buy two expensive, but very good, planes rather than four cheaper ones.

My choice would be a Clifton #6 or #7 http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalo ... lanes.html and a Veritas low angle block plane http://www.brimarc.com/home.php3?page=p ... C_106_22_1

In practice, you could do almost everything you want with these planes and in my experience they will out-perform any Record or Stanley bench and block planes by a significant margin. It's true that the older Record and Stanley planes were much better than the new ones but they are no match for the planes being produced by Clifton, Veritas and LN - even after much fettling and fitting replacement blades and cap irons.

That's my opinion, based on my experience, but others will no doubt be along with a different view.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Waka]

Slimjim81

Enter the competition and you could win a Clifton 4 1/2.

 

[JesseM]

While I agree with Paul's suggestions I will add as far old planes go that a good ole Stanley #5 is very useful to have around. Its one of the few vintage planes I use all the time.

 

[Philly]

Jim
Quality at Stanley and Record took a dive after the War so anything before that is definitely worth buying.
Of course, you need to be able to date you plane. These links will help...
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html
http://www.sover.net/~nichael/nlc-wood/ ... refs.htmlv
http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/stanle ... /main.html

Hope this helps
Philly

 

[Shivers]

Hi Slimjim,

If I were starting out again, knowing what I know now, I would try a different approach. That would be to buy two expensive, but very good, planes rather than four cheaper ones.

My choice would be a Clifton #6 or #7 http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalo ... lanes.html and a Veritas low angle block plane http://www.brimarc.com/home.php3?page=p ... C_106_22_1

In practice, you could do almost everything you want with these planes and in my experience they will out-perform any Record or Stanley bench and block planes by a significant margin. It's true that the older Record and Stanley planes were much better than the new ones but they are no match for the planes being produced by Clifton, Veritas and LN - even after much fettling and fitting replacement blades and cap irons.

That's my opinion, based on my experience, but others will no doubt be along with a different view.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

I agree with paul on this-most of my use of a plane has been with my No7(with clifton split cap iron/hock blade),& i have plenty of others,i very rarely even use a smoother-maybe the odd time--get yourself the best jointer plane you can afford, & then to be able to do odd work--get a record 778(dont get the stanley 78 as its not as good),after that pretty soon you will come across a No5 for next to nothing.then progress onto the more specialist planes after you become adept at using the ones already mentioned.it's really important to develop a feel for a plane before you move on to other specialist items(of course dont turn down anything at bargain prices) --but aim for top quality first.Top quality meaning no off brands,& specialist means shoulder/badger/rebate planes ect,
Just learn to use a no7 then take it from there.


shivers

 

[woodbloke]

Paul Chapman wrote:

you could do almost everything you want with these planes

Agree here with you Paul....just don't tell Philly that's all :lol: :lol:
I think I would also tend to go for a couple of much better quality planes rather than the usual run of the mill Record jobs....tho' definitly have a look at older planes. A low front knob is generally a sign of something older. Interestingly, Alan Peters uses mostly a No7 and a decent quality block - Rob

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Slimjim,

If I were starting out again, knowing what I know now, I would try a different approach. That would be to buy two expensive, but very good, planes rather than four cheaper ones.

Paul

I agree with this - this is hindsioght of course :lol:

But, having said that, part of the process is learning the limitations of the lesser toosl as your skills grown and then moving on.
I started with a new Stanley #5, tuned it up loads, new blade, chip breaker etc. and then eventually started to buy LN planes once I developed beyond the stanley (quite a few years later!). I still use that stanley occasioally and it is in my plane rack with the rest.

 

[bugbear]

Hi everyone.

Having had a few moments on previous projects where I have thought to myself I needed some decent planes, I have decided to have a look at car boot sales and ebay for some decent second hand ones.

I know that the newer stanley and record planes are not too well thought of nowadays. My question is what age of plane should I look at to get a decent tool for these two makes.

Also what other makes should I be looking at second hand? (Definately cant afford the likes of LN and Veritas)

I am after a no.4, 5 and 7. and a block plane.

Many thanks in advance

For simple guide, I would recommend buying older Record planes, where the blade has square (or at least angular) corners on the non-sharpened end. Later blade had rounded corners which were presumably a comfort/safety feature. This "tip" allows you to spot older (and desirable) Record planes at a substantial distance and without detailed inspection.

Beyond this, I would only recommend buying pretty good example; disconcertingly, the price difference between a junk #4 and a really good #4 at car boots is minimal; it's hard to get a #4 for less than a fiver, regradless of brand and/or condition, and yet it's rare to see one at over 15 quid.

So you should be looking for complete planes, with undamaged handles, little or no rust, and a good length of blade.

You should have very little trouble getting a #4 and #5. #7's are dramatically rarer, and will go for 40-70 quid, even at car boots.

I would recommend simply buying the Lee Valley Low Angle block planes. Adjustable mouth block planes are (IME) ultra rare at car boots, and normally highly priced.

There is ample information on the net or in your local library on fixup and tuning.

BugBear

 

[MIGNAL]

Please don't take this the wrong way but what is it that the LN, Clifton and Veritas will do that the well tuned Stanley won't?

 

[Shivers]

Please don't take this the wrong way but what is it that the LN, Clifton and Veritas will do that the well tuned Stanley won't?

stanelys have only been in use for 120 years --so they cant be that good.LOL.

Good point nothing wrong with stanleys if set up correctly that applies to any plane really,because of your comment i realise i went a bit overboard with my reccomondations,i should have mentioned that the stanleys(the big ones anyway)are in the group to have & are not beginners toys.
regards.

 

[Vormulac]

For simple guide, I would recommend buying older Record planes, where the blade has square (or at least angular) corners on the non-sharpened end. Later blade had rounded corners which were presumably a comfort/safety feature. This "tip" allows you to spot older (and desirable) Record planes at a substantial distance and without detailed inspection.

I don't suppose you would have a photographic example of this kicking around somewhere do you? That sounds like a superb tip and one I look forward to exercising at the next car boot sale I find!

V.

 

[woodbloke]

Bugbear - now that is a good tip to recognise the older Record planes...but what do you do if the blade had been replaced at some point? - Rob

 

[MIGNAL]

Just hope that someone hasn't swapped blades with regard to the square edged blade It's usually a good sign though.
I'm not sure I would recommend a No 7, not until we know what sort of projects he wants to undertake. Most plane size recommendations are pretty dependent on the task you want to carry out.
The other option for plane selection are the woodies, either antique or perhaps the modern cheap Hong kong planes. I like them but they are not for everyone. The Hong Kong planes came out very well in a plane test that is available on the internet but then again they are bedded at 60 degrees and you would expect them to do well cutting at that angle. Blades are High Speed Steel so pretty tuff to sharpen, but once sharp they stay sharp for so much longer.

 

[Alf]

Rob, 'Tis simple. Leave it for someone who's read-up even more of the finer points of spotting a good'un... :wink:

The not unjustified question has been posed: what is it that the LN, Clifton and Veritas will do that the well tuned Stanley won't? To which the answer is "nothing". However, to get an LN, Clifton or Veritas all you need is money. To get a well-tuned Stanley you need time, skill, practice and experience. And money - but posibly not as much. Although you may finding yourself buying a lot of "cheap" planes if you get the bug, at which point it would arguably have been cheaper to buy an "expensive" plane in the first place. I'm a warning to others regarding that danger... Unless you know of a source of well-tuned Stanleys in which case all bets are off.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Chapman]

Please don't take this the wrong way but what is it that the LN, Clifton and Veritas will do that the well tuned Stanley won't?

I have Record and Stanley bench and block planes which I bought in the 1970s because that was all that was available, and Clifton bench planes and a Veritas low angle block plane that I bought more recently.

Before buying the Clifton and Veritas bench planes I went down the road of adding better blades and cap irons (Clifton) to my Records and Stanleys and trying to tune the planes to get them to work better. However, despite marked improvements I was never entirely satisfied with their performance. They were OK on soft woods and sweet-grained hardwoods but on tough hardwoods and problem woods with interlocked grain and the like, I found their performance wanting.

The Clifton bench planes and the Veritas low angle block were a revelation. I put it down to the following.

The castings are better machined. They are a proper engineering job with all the parts (particularly the frog assemblies) fitting perfectly. This results in no chatter. The blades and cap irons are thick and made of superior materials. They bed down nicely on the frog. The Bedrock pattern frog on the Cliftons makes adjusting the mouth so easy, without dismantling the planes (this is important to me because I don't have a table saw, planer/thicknesser or bandsaw so I need to be able to adjust the mouth of my planes more than some other users). The planes are heavy which I find helps - planes jumping about on very hard woods because they are too light give the same sort of problems as chatter. In a nutshell, it comes down to better engineering and better materials. By comparison, my older Records and Stanleys feel as if they were just thrown together

Since getting the Cliftons and the Veritas block, many planing problems have simply gone away - no chatter, no tear-out - and planing is a real joy.

I'm not saying that you can't get a particular Record or Stanley to work well and I still use mine occasionally, but in my experience buying something better will save a lot of problems and enable you to concentrate on woodwork rather than forever faffing about in an attempt to get your tools to work properly.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bugbear]

Bugbear - now that is a good tip to recognise the older Record planes...but what do you do if the blade had been replaced at some point? - Rob

To state the obvious - my short cut tip doesn't work! It only applies (accurately) to Record planes anyway.

There are many, many other ways to spot "good quality" planes, but they're detailed and geeky...

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

Please don't take this the wrong way but what is it that the LN, Clifton and Veritas will do that the well tuned Stanley won't?

It's not 'what' but how.

Even a well tuned stanley with hock blade and clifton 2-piece chip breaker just doesn't feel as nice in use and doesn't cut quite the same (hard to put into words) despite the overall price getting quite close to a clifton etc. by this point. The difference is particularly noticeable on more exotic woods with changes in grain direction or on very hard woods where the stanley tended to chatter.

It is one of those - try it and see - kind of things. I thought my stanley #5 was fantastic until I used my first LN bench plane when its weaknesses became apparent.

Ther is also the 'perceived' differences - the quality of the tool is so far removed from any stanley or record (of any age) - it is a pleasure to own and use a high quality tool that a company has invested so much time in design and manufacture.

Also, there is the lack of need to 'tune' them. I want to use tools that I buy, not finish off the manufacturers job for them!!!

Don't get me wrong, the stanley was fine and worked well for years, hence my advice earlier in the thread

 

[woodbloke]

Paul Chapman wrote:

Record and Stanley bench and block planes which I bought in the 1970s

Paul - I bought Record planes of the same vintage and it took me a long time over many months to get them to a state were they were half decent....as you know, have now traded them in for something a little better :lol:

Alf wrote:

Rob, 'Tis simple. Leave it for someone who's read-up even more of the finer points of spotting a good'un...

Alf, that wouldn't be 'cos you're on 'o they collector people would it? :lol: - Rob

 

[Colin C]

Is it me or is there some one missing from this thread 8-[ :-$