Building a car standing - process?

[DrPhill]

Hi all, I am contemplating building a car standing closer to the house than our garage (which is on a plot not connected to the main plot and is several yards down the track). We have the space and the only affected neighbour seems to have no objections (he seemed surprised that I even asked).

The problem is that the only place to put it slopes down from the road and therefore will need building up, or maybe a girder framework constructing. I prefer the idea of a framework as I may get some storage space underneath. So how do I go about assessing the viability and costs of the project? Will I need planning permission (we are not in a conservation zone)? Do I consult an architect? Are there minimum size requirements for parking spaces?

Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks all, and enjoy the weather

Phill

 

[akirk]

pretty much any question you have on planning can be answered here: Planning Portal
specifically here: (assuming in your front garden) Planning permission | Paving your front garden | Planning Portal
key info is around drainage:

You will not need planning permission if a new or replacement driveway of any size uses permeable (or porous) surfacing which allows water to drain through, such as gravel, permeable concrete block paving or porous asphalt, or if the rainwater is directed to a lawn or border to drain naturally.

If the surface to be covered is more than five square metres planning permission will be needed for laying traditional, impermeable driveways that do not provide for the water to run to a permeable area.

outside that - no idea, but if you are wanting something more substantial, you may be into other types of planning considerations, and stuff in front of the principle elevation of the house is tricky in planning terms... so you might want to consult a planning specialist not just an architect...

regarding size - go bigger than you think you need!

 

[Eric Roy]

I believe that the “standard” for car parking spaces is 2.4m wide by 4.8m long.

We are presently constructing a hard standing 8m long for our 3.5tonne Motorhome. We will be using X-Grid with 20mm chippings to get a relatively maintenance-free result which will also allow water to drain through it. Due to being behind our property, we did not need Planning Permission.

 

[DrPhill]

Thanks for those replies. I have never heard of a 'planning specialist' before. Someone who makes their money because they know their way around the complex planning regulations? Interesting.

We have a potting shed (known as the rotting shed) which has brick half-walls and a timber superstructure. The timber is in very poor state of repair and needs removing. The brick structure is almost certainly inadequate for anything structural, but as a thought experiment, if we were to roof across this from the road we would have a parking area 3m wide by 4.6m deep. This seems a reasonable starting point. To achieve that 4.6m depth we would need the parking area to be raised about 2m above ground level. If we filled this with porous rubble, and had drain holes then it may qualify as a new drive, and pass the test above - thus requiring no permissions. If we went this route would a competent builder be sufficient to build a clockwork wall and fill with rubble? Would I expect to need structural of other calculations?

As I said above, I prefer the idea of a metal framework so that I could gain some storage area underneath. Does this then require more permissions, or structural calculations? Am I right in thinking this may be a cheaper option?

We have the space to make the parking area slightly wider and slightly longer but using these dimensions should give us an idea of cost and feasibility.

As for arguments about frontal and main elevations..... that is very tricky here. The bungalow is cut into the hill, so the part facing the lane is all roof (North). The 'front' with the front door faces west, not towards the road. The parking area would be on the north side. My guess is that the 'main elevation' would be taken as the 'north side' of the bungalow, even though it is all rosemary tiles with no verticals, or doors in it.

 

[akirk]

principle elevation is usually where-ever the front door might sit - or in the absence of a traditional front door - then planning would determine it by means of architectural features - i.e. the direction the house was built to face... it isn't automatically the side nearest the road...

this might be beneficial for you as it could avoid the need for planning... I (as a total amateur with no specific expertise!) would suggest that the work you are considering is not likely to be seen as driveway by default... not being in front of the principle elevation may therefore help.

if you wish to avoid planning, there is another option - getting a lawful development certificate - which is basically getting planning to say, yes you can go ahead with this, we confirm that it does not need planning. There are I believe quite strict guidelines around planning, such that they have no choice but to confirm that it is lawful if there is nothing in it that specifically requires planning - perhaps a slight insurance... Lawful development certificates

 

[DrPhill]

principle elevation is usually where-ever the front door might sit - or in the absence of a traditional front door - then planning would determine it by means of architectural features - i.e. the direction the house was built to face... it isn't automatically the side nearest the road...

this might be beneficial for you as it could avoid the need for planning... I (as a total amateur with no specific expertise!) would suggest that the work you are considering is not likely to be seen as driveway by default... not being in front of the principle elevation may therefore help.

if you wish to avoid planning, there is another option - getting a lawful development certificate - which is basically getting planning to say, yes you can go ahead with this, we confirm that it does not need planning. There are I believe quite strict guidelines around planning, such that they have no choice but to confirm that it is lawful if there is nothing in it that specifically requires planning - perhaps a slight insurance... Lawful development certificates

Thanks, I had noticed LDCs on the site that you referenced. They certainly look interesting.

It is odd that the elevation is based on architecture. My bungalow is a semi - mirror image of the other half originally. One faces east the other west. The lane is North, and I think that, when built (~1920), the main approach would have been from the south which is now just a pedestrian access.

I have tried an email to the local authority, but I am not holding my breath.

 

[akirk]

I think that most local authorities now don't comment pre-planning, they worked out that they can make more money but not doing so - hence the general advice if your situation isn't 100% straight forward (e.g. shed in back garden) to have a planning specialist involved, or apply for the LDC - having said that, planning itself may not be hugely expensive, it just depends what else is then introduced, e.g. newts / bats / rare plants / any other 'thing' you need to consider! so where it is possible to go simple and stay under the radar, then I think that is better...

 

[RobinBHM]

Such work could be considered "an engineering operation"

An 'engineering operation' occurs when altering the profile of the land or changing the character of the surface of the land -and it is not permitted development

 

[DrPhill]

Such work could be considered "an engineering operation"

An 'engineering operation' occurs when altering the profile of the land or changing the character of the surface of the land -and it is not permitted development

Makes sense - it seems reasonable that such a large alteration might need special consideration.

 

[Jonm]

Hi all, I am contemplating building a car standing closer to the house than our garage (

It would help if you posted some pictures of where you are thinking of putting the hard standing.

A bit of a sketch with a few dimensions, hand drawn and then photographed would help.

You are talking about the vehicle being on a raised platform with storage underneath. That is perfectly possible but expensive, and complicated, both to design and construct.

A standard parking bay is 2.4m wide by 4.8m long but I expect you will want it bigger, particularly if you have vertical drops and hence fencing/parapets which will restrict door opening. Also cars are getting bigger, parking bay standards are old. If you go to Costco they have bigger bays, try one then measure it.

When I worked out the parking areas and turning bay for my house I drew it out then checked it by marking it out in a local car park and driving round it.

 

[DrPhill]

Pictures and sketch I can do later..... but for now imagine a rectanglular parking bay narrow side touching the road (there is no pavement here). I can easily allocate enough for 3m wide by 4.5m deep, but the end furthest from the road will have a 2m drop.
I could extend by as much as a metre in both directions, but that would exhaust the space and I would like to fit in steps or similar.
The length should suit a small to medium ev. There is a full size drive and a large garage twenty yards down the lane for bigger vehicles. Since the garage has no leccy but the car standing is close to the house I will save the costs of connecting the garage to the mains and having a second meter for ev. Rough quote for thatwas 'about a grand'.

 

[Jonm]

Pictures and sketch I can do later..... but for now imagine a rectanglular parking bay narrow side touching the road (there is no pavement here). I can easily allocate enough for 3m wide by 4.5m deep, but the end furthest from the road will have a 2m drop.
I could extend by as much as a metre in both directions, but that would exhaust the space and I would like to fit in steps or similar.
The length should suit a small to medium ev. There is a full size drive and a large garage twenty yards down the lane for bigger vehicles. Since the garage has no leccy but the car standing is close to the house I will save the costs of connecting the garage to the mains and having a second meter for ev. Rough quote for thatwas 'about a grand'.

Access off the “lane”, is it public highway, if so you will need highway authority approval to allow the works and for construction. They will probably require you to use one of their approved contractors for works on the highway Ie the bit between the highway boundary and the road surface.

Two metre high retaining wall, that is structural engineer design territory. It will require a balustrade. Steps will require a handrail, all to standard.

The issue you have is that this is an expensive item of work, easily visible from the road. I know that Warwickshire county council regularly inspect all their roads. I read this about Worcester County Council “All carriageways, footways and cycle ways are inspected at regular intervals ranging between monthly to 12 monthly periods, depending on their hierarchy”. So there is a very good chance that your highway authority will notice a new connection to the highway. You therefore need all the approvals in place.

I am not sure if you need planning approval but probably yes. I think you will need highway authority approval and this is normally part of the planning approval process. I think you will need building control approval and they will want a structural design for the retaining wall. Building Control Approval is separate from Planning.

i would start with the highway authority, assuming the lane is highway. They should be helpful and without their approval you cannot proceed. If they have no objection then you need someone to prepare the plans for planning and building control.

Remember the timescales involved in the approvals, ask them. For building control I would go for full plans, (say 2 months approval time) you then build in accordance with the plans and get approval at the end. The other route of Building Notice is riskier, inspector comes along at the end and tells you the parapets are not high enough, gaps too big etc.

hope this helps, and some photos would be good

 

[Terry - Somerset]

If the end has a 2m drop, I don't think you would get away with simply piling a few stones and surfacing that.

You are putting the parking space on what seems like quite a slope. My main concern would be that it will have a tendency to slide down the hill.

A retaining wall on decent foundations would probably be the normal solution. If you go for a steel girder solution they will need appropriately deep pads on which to sit.

From a planning perspective - you may not need permission for the building work on your land - but you may if the parking entrance is a new addition to the roadscape. Worth checking.

Note - written before I saw Jonm response above which seems very informed!

 

[Jonm]

Access off the “lane”, is it public highway, if so you will need highway authority approval to allow the works and for construction. They will probably require you to use one of their approved contractors for works on the highway Ie the bit between the highway boundary and the road surface.

Two metre high retaining wall, that is structural engineer design territory. It will require a balustrade. Steps will require a handrail, all to standard.

The issue you have is that this is an expensive item of work, easily visible from the road. I know that Warwickshire county council regularly inspect all their roads. I read this about Worcester County Council “All carriageways, footways and cycle ways are inspected at regular intervals ranging between monthly to 12 monthly periods, depending on their hierarchy”. So there is a very good chance that your highway authority will notice a new connection to the highway. You therefore need all the approvals in place.

I am not sure if you need planning approval but probably yes. I think you will need highway authority approval and this is normally part of the planning approval process. I think you will need building control approval and they will want a structural design for the retaining wall. Building Control Approval is separate from Planning.

i would start with the highway authority, assuming the lane is highway. They should be helpful and without their approval you cannot proceed. If they have no objection then you need someone to prepare the plans for planning and building control.

Remember the timescales involved in the approvals, ask them. For building control I would go for full plans, (say 2 months approval time) you then build in accordance with the plans and get approval at the end. The other route of Building Notice is riskier, inspector comes along at the end and tells you the parapets are not high enough, gaps too big etc.

hope this helps, and some photos would be good

Here is a link to Somerset CC for access to the highway.

https://www.somerset.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/dropped-kerbs-and-driveways/
Here is link to Somerset highways inspection regime
http://wwwold.somerset.gov.uk/Easys...ssetID=97176&type=full&servicetype=Attachment
Para 8.3. Basically same as Worcestershire, inspect all highways, including green lanes between 1 month and 1 year intervals, depending on class of road. So good chance they will spot any unauthorised works.

 

[DrPhill]

Thanks both to Terry and to Jonm. There is a wealth of information to digest there. I had not realised that 'highways' would be involved, but it makes complete sense and seems entirely reasonable.

I am too law-abiding (and nervous) to try breaking the rules. Added to which I know that I do not know enough to do it successfully. I will do everything by the (cheapest) book.....

I heard back from council within two days - confirming it as an engineering work and so needing permission.

Sliding down the hill is the chief hazard - I have a garage on a similar slope, but because it is longer it has much longer steel legs to the frame.

The question is what is the cheapest way to proceed - not the overall cheapest solution but the least investment early on to discover feasibility and ultimate cost?

 

[Jameshow]

A ground works firm should be able to advise....

Another idea is to use concrete Lego blocks. If you found a firm who made them they might provide some engineering information to give to the council?

Cheers James

 

[Jonm]

Thanks both to Terry and to Jonm. There is a wealth of information to digest there. I had not realised that 'highways' would be involved, but it makes complete sense and seems entirely reasonable.

I am too law-abiding (and nervous) to try breaking the rules. Added to which I know that I do not know enough to do it successfully. I will do everything by the (cheapest) book.....

I heard back from council within two days - confirming it as an engineering work and so needing permission.

Sliding down the hill is the chief hazard - I have a garage on a similar slope, but because it is longer it has much longer steel legs to the frame.

The question is what is the cheapest way to proceed - not the overall cheapest solution but the least investment early on to discover feasibility and ultimate cost?

1. I would start with the highway authority, without their approval you will not get planning. Warwickshire CC (Highway authority) use to charge for advice then take the cost off their charges when you put in an application. The charge was £60 from memory. Here is a Somerset CC document which talks about pre application advice, but does not give fees
https://www.somerset.gov.uk/roads-a...ltation-on-planning-process/#More-information
2. Planning. Not sure who your planning authority is but here is a document for South Somerset Pre application advice
https://www.southsomerset.gov.uk/media/3060/preapp-notes-and-fees-1st-april-2020.pdf
£55 for pre application advice, so that is well worth doing. Best to find out what they want in the application, ie vertical brick/block walls, stepped gabions, steel structure on stilts etc. The actual planning documentation should not be complicated, you may be able to do the application yourself. Hand drawn plans A3 size can be copied and are OK. You should be able to view/download previous applications from their website, if you can find one similar then you can use it as a template. As I said before, highway authority approval is part of the planning process.

3. Building Control. You can do this after planning. This is the technical bit and you will probably need a professional. You need plans for building control and also for your builder. Also someone who can come up with an economical solution (hopefully you will not have to go back to planning). A two metre high, vertical retaining wall, if that is what you end up with is a substantial structure and you need someone with professional liability to pay if something goes wrong.

I will post some ideas about retaining walls, my house was completed a few years ago, and it’s on a sloping site. I did all the plans and applications and was heavily involved in the building.

 

[DrPhill]

That is more good advice, Thanks. I need to start asking the authorities, and expecting to spend some drinking vouchers.
Is there a way that I can estimate overall costs (very rough estimate would be better than none). If it is going to cost more than 5k I might have to do some reflection. Below that I would likely proceed with investigation.

Also there is an option to make the bay so that the car is parked parallel to the road edge. That would mean a shorter retaining wall, height and maybe length. That may reduce costs, but obviously the space would need to be a bit longer for pulling in. I need to measure up that possibility tomorrow.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

1. I would start with the highway authority, without their approval you will not get planning. Warwickshire CC (Highway authority) use to charge for advice then take the cost off their charges when you put in an application. The charge was £60 from memory. Here is a Somerset CC document which talks about pre application advice, but does not give fees
https://www.somerset.gov.uk/roads-a...ltation-on-planning-process/#More-information
2. Planning. Not sure who your planning authority is but here is a document for South Somerset Pre application advice
https://www.southsomerset.gov.uk/media/3060/preapp-notes-and-fees-1st-april-2020.pdf
£55 for pre application advice, so that is well worth doing. Best to find out what they want in the application, ie vertical brick/block walls, stepped gabions, steel structure on stilts etc. The actual planning documentation should not be complicated, you may be able to do the application yourself. Hand drawn plans A3 size can be copied and are OK. You should be able to view/download previous applications from their website, if you can find one similar then you can use it as a template. As I said before, highway authority approval is part of the planning process.

3. Building Control. You can do this after planning. This is the technical bit and you will probably need a professional. You need plans for building control and also for your builder. Also someone who can come up with an economical solution (hopefully you will not have to go back to planning). A two metre high, vertical retaining wall, if that is what you end up with is a substantial structure and you need someone with professional liability to pay if something goes wrong.

I will post some ideas about retaining walls, my house was completed a few years ago, and it’s on a sloping site. I did all the plans and applications and was heavily involved in the building.

The highways authority would normally be a statutory consultee in the planning process.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

That is more good advice, Thanks. I need to start asking the authorities, and expecting to spend some drinking vouchers.
Is there a way that I can estimate overall costs (very rough estimate would be better than none). If it is going to cost more than 5k I might have to do some reflection. Below that I would likely proceed with investigation.

Also there is an option to make the bay so that the car is parked parallel to the road edge. That would mean a shorter retaining wall, height and maybe length. That may reduce costs, but obviously the space would need to be a bit longer for pulling in. I need to measure up that possibility tomorrow.

A good structural engineer should be able to give you some different design options and an idea of costs - a key factor will be the ground conditions. I would consult the engineer first. Again, a good engineer should also be able to help with putting your planning app through the system. A planning consultant is probably less useful, unless you run into specific planning-related difficulties which the engineer or you can't resolve. I would not contemplate doing anything further without getting the engineer on board