Breathing dust

[matt]

i PM'd Charley a short while ago suggesting a new sub-forum dedicated to health & safety to make it easier to get some stickies in place defining a few fundamental concepts around health & safety. Not just dust and wood toxicity, but also safe use of tools etc.

I suspect this would be helpful for those new to woodworking or simply new to using, say, a tablesaw.

I've not had a reply (there's no need to say it, Wizer...) so perhaps the mods would like to consider the idea.

 

[wizer]

tis weird tho, isn't it?

 

[WellsWood]

I know a little about this so for the benefit of interested parties, I'll share.

Rob is right with regard to the dust mask rating, for airborne particulates - dust to you and me - P2 is correct. But there are a few things you need to know before rushing out to buy any RPE (respiratory protective equipment).

RPE is just one of a range of PPE which we should consider for the benefit of our health. What is often overlooked, particularly by those who are exposing themselves to risks in an amateur capacity, is that PPE should always be considered a LAST RESORT. The fundamental thing we need to do is work on is eliminating, or failing that reducing as far as possible the risk in the first place - you don't need a dust mask if there is no dust to breath. A simplistic view I know, but you get my point. So think firstly about making less dust - use hand tools for quick small operations if possible, and where you must use a machine get the most effective extraction you can. Make sure your filtration levels are appropriate for the material you are cutting and how you're cutting it.

Think carefully about how you clean up. Avoid any method which puts the dust on your floor or shelf back in the air, so don't sweep if you can vacuum for example. And NEVER NEVER use compressed air to move dust, apart from being the most effective method known of making it airborne and therefore breathable again, you add in a whole new risk - one involving high velocity particles and eyes.

When you've attended to these aspects as best you can only then should you be thinking about dust masks. When you do remember, for RPE to be worthwhile it not only has to be appropriate to the hazard but it has to fit properly. It also must be worn for the whole time the hazard is present, usually long after the machining process is finished. This is where ambient air filters come into play, by clearing the particles from the air so that the mask can be removed, and in no way should they be considered an alternative to the other protective measures.

Throwaway cup masks like the one pictured early in this thread are practically useless, if you must use one make sure it is CE marked, rated FFP2 and preferably a valved type with double retaining straps which afford a much better fit. Re-usable masks like this one are far superior and quite reasonably priced. If you have problems wearing safety glasses with your mask you probably need better ones, Bolle are very good and anti-mist coated which should help. Failing that go for a full face respirator, but prices are significantly higher.

As Ondablade has already said, the HSE website has a wealth of information and good advice

 

[stuartpaul]

I find this story very hard to believe. A man effectively KILLS himself with a weekends work??????????

Not doubting you Roger, but it seems far fetched to the extreme to me.

Cheers

Karl

I'm with Karl, - I find this very hard to believe. A single weekend?

Where did he work, what did he do etc. etc. that also contributed to his condition.

That is in no way to say that the subject of dust shouldn't be treated very seriously.

 

[dannykaye]

for general dust problems I use one of these

ebay link

they are good enough to stop the finest wood dust I ever make, they also come in different grades to suit particular particulates (sorry)

 

[gasman]

I have to be honest and share the scepticism of one or two of you about this tale.... whilst I agree with all the stuff about dust protection and minimizing exposure etc etc - if this story were to be true there would be far more fatalaties from dust-related illnesses. After all who here hasn't had a few lungfuls of nasty sawdust / concrete dust etc at some stage.
I am an anaesthetist, quite often working in operating theatres with people having lung surgery so I know a bit about this. As I recall there are very very few materials which are so toxic to the lungs as this story would suggest - so it would seem more likely that either he has underlying chronic lung disease or the exposure to dust is more long term. There are respiratory specialists who specialize in patients with industrial lung disease (pneumoconiosis is the name of the condition) and the process generally takes years, not hours or days. I fully endorse all safety precautions tho'

 

[matt]

tis weird tho, isn't it?

I find it odd that there is no decision maker, whether that be Charley or a mod who sits at the top of the pile and gives some sense of keeping the forum structure relevant to the topics of today.

Doesn't feel particulary cohesive!

I just reported my own post above to draw attention to the idea...

 

[CHJ]

i PM'd Charley a short while ago suggesting a new sub-forum dedicated to health & safety to make it easier to get some stickies in place defining a few fundamental concepts around health & safety. Not just dust and wood toxicity, but also safe use of tools etc.

I suspect this would be helpful for those new to woodworking or simply new to using, say, a tablesaw..

Be interesting to know how many new, or long term users for that matter, read the stickies. I regularly see thread answers across the forums pointing someone to an existing sticky on a subject that has been raised. It's not unusual to have threads from new members that obviously have not browsed before posting, be it the rules or help and guidance information.

I guess it's a case of the "Horses and Water" syndrome at work.

 

[Windy*miller]

Side issue but related.

I was living in New Zealand a couple of years and while working on a building site everyone without exception thought that I was being ridiculous wearing breathing protection to mix concrete. But then I went to use a modestly sized mitre saw without putting on ear defenders and they practically wrestled me to the ground. This also applied in domestic situations - I was there through a summer and never saw anyone mowing their lawn (with a prtrol mower ) without wearing ear defenders, something I have never seen here even once. (Although I wear them myself now - they're brilliant for making sure you don't get interrupted by the wife and kids calling you to fix something :wink: )

I just found it odd that two similar countries had such different approaches.

 

[frugal]

I was there through a summer and never saw anyone mowing their lawn (with a prtrol mower ) without wearing ear defenders, something I have never seen here even once.

Our petrol mower is quiet enough that you can hold a conversation over it, so I don't wear ear defenders for that. The strimmer on the other hand: Ear defenders, steel toe caps and the face shield I use for the lathe...

 

[ondablade]

Most of us that do anything regularly that creates noise do suffer hearing loss a we get a bit older - it's very identifiable as you lose in the frequency band you were exposed to.

On the cement/concrete cutting dust. It really is nasty stuff - even physically, never mind the dangers of silica. I'd suspect all it takes is a bloody minded individual working in a badly ventilated room with no mask - with an i'll finish this if it kills me mindset.

Even small cutting jobs done dry leave a room completely solid with dust, and more to the point even taping the doors sees it get right through a house.

Not to be messed with...

 

[skyechem]

What is better to have, an extractor or air filter? I guess both is best, but I can't afford that just now. Certainly I am realising that I need to get a top-quality mask as a first priority.
Cheers, Iain

 

[philb88]

I know a little about this so for the benefit of interested parties, I'll share.

Rob is right with regard to the dust mask rating, for airborne particulates - dust to you and me - P2 is correct. But there are a few things you need to know before rushing out to buy any RPE (respiratory protective equipment).

RPE is just one of a range of PPE which we should consider for the benefit of our health. What is often overlooked, particularly by those who are exposing themselves to risks in an amateur capacity, is that PPE should always be considered a LAST RESORT. The fundamental thing we need to do is work on is eliminating, or failing that reducing as far as possible the risk in the first place - you don't need a dust mask if there is no dust to breath. A simplistic view I know, but you get my point. So think firstly about making less dust - use hand tools for quick small operations if possible, and where you must use a machine get the most effective extraction you can. Make sure your filtration levels are appropriate for the material you are cutting and how you're cutting it.

Think carefully about how you clean up. Avoid any method which puts the dust on your floor or shelf back in the air, so don't sweep if you can vacuum for example. And NEVER NEVER use compressed air to move dust, apart from being the most effective method known of making it airborne and therefore breathable again, you add in a whole new risk - one involving high velocity particles and eyes.

When you've attended to these aspects as best you can only then should you be thinking about dust masks. When you do remember, for RPE to be worthwhile it not only has to be appropriate to the hazard but it has to fit properly. It also must be worn for the whole time the hazard is present, usually long after the machining process is finished. This is where ambient air filters come into play, by clearing the particles from the air so that the mask can be removed, and in no way should they be considered an alternative to the other protective measures.

Throwaway cup masks like the one pictured early in this thread are practically useless, if you must use one make sure it is CE marked, rated FFP2 and preferably a valved type with double retaining straps which afford a much better fit. Re-usable masks like this one are far superior and quite reasonably priced. If you have problems wearing safety glasses with your mask you probably need better ones, Bolle are very good and anti-mist coated which should help. Failing that go for a full face respirator, but prices are significantly higher.

As Ondablade has already said, the HSE website has a wealth of information and good advice

Nice info,

You say FFP2 or P2 filters, but wouldnt FFP3 or P3 be best in an ideal mask or respirator?

I use these for my mask, adjustable, vented at the front, foam sealing ring inside and the straps mean a good fit to you head?

http://solutions.3m.co.uk/wps/portal/3M ... 972JZ4P9gl

Phil

 

[WellsWood]

You say FFP2 or P2 filters, but wouldnt FFP3 or P3 be best in an ideal mask or respirator?
Phil

P2 is the recommended level, but of course there's no harm in using a higher level of protection. In fact while P2 is the recommended level for the processes involved in making the dust, P3 is considered best practice when the time comes to empty your extractor. The really important thing is the fit, the best mask in the world will do you no good if you're not breathing through it's filter medium.

 

[wizer]

how adjustable are those masks supposed to be Mark? Tried as i did I could not get it to fit properly around my chinny chin chin

 

[philb88]

Thanks for that!

Think ill just stick with the P3/FFP3 all the time, would rather the extra few pennies! Although would prefer one of the replacement filter models like shown in previous posts!

 

[frugal]

Bill Pentz has a good list of known wood toxicity and other issues in the section on his site that deals with the medical effects of dust.

I had a look at that site for the first time today. I am having trouble working out how much of what he says is true and how much is axe grinding. It is very annoying that he claims that everyone else is lying about the capabilities of their machines and that none of their research will stand up to peer review. Then just gives his own findings as fact with no backing of how he got to that point (thus making his own case just as hard to peer review).

Converting some of his maths from imperial to metric (all of the machine specs in this country are in metric). his 800CFM comes out to 1,400m3/h. Assuming that he is correct and that the manufacturers give figures that are about twice the effective airflow, then you would need something like this with the fine filters and a cyclone in front of it? Or are the adverts and figures in the UK better than the companies and adverts he rants about in the US?

Or do you need to go all the way up to this to catch the really fine dust?

Basically Bill spends a lot of time complaining that the US standards are not as good as the european standards, are European machines that are advertised as catching 1 micron or even 0.2 micron dust actually doing so, or are they like his claim of merican machines letting hrough dust ten times the size that they claim to stop?

 

[matt]

I reached the same place as you. He's not succinct, eh? I would spend ages reading and hopping between pages and skim reading and then wondering whether I'd missed the evidence to back up the claims. Something simple like with A the air quality readings were X, and with B the reading was Y. All I can recall is constant references to another person, namely the Dust Doctor, held up as proof.

I don't want to dismiss it, nor do I was to pay a fortune for a Clear Vue filter (is it a marketing ploy)?

It's all a bit too much like "this is the ONLY solution - everything else will kill you".

 

[frugal]

Doing some more digging around, there are some threads on Sawmill Creek where people have been discussing it anf Bill's comments are pretty evasive when it comes to people asking where he gets his data from (the thread I was reading was asking for his evidence about the claim on the number of people who get ill due to dust in the woodwork industry).

 

[mtt.tr]

i dont understand the limits cm3 per so and so ??