To respond. Bill's stuff drives me nuts when it comes to trying to extract specific information - even if you know it's in there somewhere. Wordy as hell, not well structured with bits of data dropped in all over the place.
He's no finely structured academic or professional, but then no professional would go into this space in the way he has anyway for personal gain - there's simply nothing in it for them. For sure he's a bit of a zealot, but not so far as i can detect for any great gain. He's taken a lot of hits from sectors of the industry in the US it seems in their attempts to silence him, but has never so far as i can tell been put down by hard data.
What is fairly clear is that what it sets out is the direction the hobbyist dust collection industry is now headed - we're increasingly seeing HEPA and high MERV cartridge filters offered as premium alternatives, as well as higher HP fans and cyclones etc. (especially in the US) These in fact are all available from multiple sources there.
Despite this there's a hard fact that has to be taken on board. The reality is that we're used to paying £150 - £200 for a cheapo bag filter unit, and thinking we're doing a great job when we're almost certainly not. Larger motors, cyclones and higher spec filters can be implemented relatively cheaply by going down the DIY route, but even this way they are more expensive. Bought 'off the shelf' (and there's not that many options in the UK yet so far as i can tell - see below) it's got to be quite a lot more expensive.
The fact too is that it's at this stage a judgement call. It will perhaps in time become the norm to use more highly specified systems, but there is never going to be 'proof' on any of this - just the usual cacophony of competing claims. The task is to look for signs of what might be fairly true, and what not - then make your choice.
The big factors in my personal decision to head down this route were:
(a) he's not making any obvious attempt to make profit - his site actively encourages the DIY approach and provides the info. FOC. It might suit to buy an impeller in the US, but that is about all that's not local, and even that can probably be sourced locally as a spare part from the likes of Soler & Palau
(b) i've not come across a negative report by anybody, only the odd issue to do with variations that have crept in in the building. There's personal stories of people's building his system all over the place on the web - most especially on the Clear Vue Forum.
(c) the engineering data he quotes isn't always 100% clear regarding correct interpretation, but adds up and is supported by other eqpt manufacturers. e.g fan tables
(d) the position he outlines on standards is absolutely the norm - that as a result of vested interests protection levels usually lag behind known medical realities.
What he says about Euro filtration standards being higher seems to be true - when i went to buy my filters from Donaldson UK they told me that they do not sell the lower standard 'blend' type cartridge filter offered by Clear Vue in the US in Europe, only their equivalent to the higher spec/more expensive nanofibre type offered by Wynn - the HEPA compliant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA Donaldson Torit Ultra Filter 2. These are sitting in my workshop and are indeed stamped as Ultra Filter 2.
(e) my own experience over the past nine years with a typical 1Kw bag and filter unit with about 2m of 100mm hose showed how borderline it was (the bag had to be kept very clean or the suck disappeared), even for basic chip collection.
We nevertheless have each to make our mind up, and there's no guarantees. I'll be happy to report my experience when i get that far.
On what's needed. Bill's clear that you do need more fan kW than has been typical in hobbyist systems to get good dust collection, at least by his route. (and there may be other higher suction/smaller duct options that are technically feasible. The vacuum type systems may be heading this way, but may or may not be there yet)
The deciding factor on kW is the pressure drop created by your m/c hoods, ducting and cyclone. He reckons that with correctly sized short ducting (i.e. as in a very small shop, or (and i'm interpreting here) with one located close to the machine using a shortish a 150mm flexible you can get by with less than the 5hp and 16in impeller of his 'stock' system. The 16in impeller 5hp version draws about 3.8hp in use, leaving a safe margin if extra ducts are left open. (check out the table of HP/impeller size/cfm/duct length on his dust collection basics page) He advises that the design formula suggests some alterations to the cyclone dimensions in this case though.
It seems you start getting decent function in short run/low pressure drop situations from about 2kW upwards. Longer or more restrictive duct runs need more grunt.
The problem on fine filtration seems to be that it would be hugely expensive to run HEPA standard filters without an effective cyclone, in that they cost too much and don't clean that easily - they would block and need replacement too often.
He claims his cyclone proportions work very well (this view is borne out by users), says that it's common for makers to offer much less effective proportions to save money/space, but is equally clear that his dimensions come from the long established formula developed by one of the US professional bodies and used by makers of commercial dust collection systems.
By this the units you mentioned seem to be on the lower end on kW, how well they might filter or separate dust depends on the design and spec.
The problem at the end of the day is that most DIY/hobbyist systems seem to be underspecified. If you want something off the shelf the Super Gorilla system available from Oneida's UK rep (see http://www.oneida-air.com/gorilla_3hp.php - there's 2hp, 3 hp or 5hp options) seems worth checking out as its more in the space Bill is talking about. I've not looked closely at it as for me the DIY route seemed much more cost effective.
There seem to be a few other highly specified off the shelf cyclone and cartridge filter systems like this available in the US, but i'm not sure what's around in the UK other than this. It's likely too that the more professional systems available here don't surface in the mags. (e.g. the Felder units seem worth a look, but i didn't check them out properly as the price put me off)
Anyway...
He's no finely structured academic or professional, but then no professional would go into this space in the way he has anyway for personal gain - there's simply nothing in it for them. For sure he's a bit of a zealot, but not so far as i can detect for any great gain. He's taken a lot of hits from sectors of the industry in the US it seems in their attempts to silence him, but has never so far as i can tell been put down by hard data.
What is fairly clear is that what it sets out is the direction the hobbyist dust collection industry is now headed - we're increasingly seeing HEPA and high MERV cartridge filters offered as premium alternatives, as well as higher HP fans and cyclones etc. (especially in the US) These in fact are all available from multiple sources there.
Despite this there's a hard fact that has to be taken on board. The reality is that we're used to paying £150 - £200 for a cheapo bag filter unit, and thinking we're doing a great job when we're almost certainly not. Larger motors, cyclones and higher spec filters can be implemented relatively cheaply by going down the DIY route, but even this way they are more expensive. Bought 'off the shelf' (and there's not that many options in the UK yet so far as i can tell - see below) it's got to be quite a lot more expensive.
The fact too is that it's at this stage a judgement call. It will perhaps in time become the norm to use more highly specified systems, but there is never going to be 'proof' on any of this - just the usual cacophony of competing claims. The task is to look for signs of what might be fairly true, and what not - then make your choice.
The big factors in my personal decision to head down this route were:
(a) he's not making any obvious attempt to make profit - his site actively encourages the DIY approach and provides the info. FOC. It might suit to buy an impeller in the US, but that is about all that's not local, and even that can probably be sourced locally as a spare part from the likes of Soler & Palau
(b) i've not come across a negative report by anybody, only the odd issue to do with variations that have crept in in the building. There's personal stories of people's building his system all over the place on the web - most especially on the Clear Vue Forum.
(c) the engineering data he quotes isn't always 100% clear regarding correct interpretation, but adds up and is supported by other eqpt manufacturers. e.g fan tables
(d) the position he outlines on standards is absolutely the norm - that as a result of vested interests protection levels usually lag behind known medical realities.
What he says about Euro filtration standards being higher seems to be true - when i went to buy my filters from Donaldson UK they told me that they do not sell the lower standard 'blend' type cartridge filter offered by Clear Vue in the US in Europe, only their equivalent to the higher spec/more expensive nanofibre type offered by Wynn - the HEPA compliant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA Donaldson Torit Ultra Filter 2. These are sitting in my workshop and are indeed stamped as Ultra Filter 2.
(e) my own experience over the past nine years with a typical 1Kw bag and filter unit with about 2m of 100mm hose showed how borderline it was (the bag had to be kept very clean or the suck disappeared), even for basic chip collection.
We nevertheless have each to make our mind up, and there's no guarantees. I'll be happy to report my experience when i get that far.
On what's needed. Bill's clear that you do need more fan kW than has been typical in hobbyist systems to get good dust collection, at least by his route. (and there may be other higher suction/smaller duct options that are technically feasible. The vacuum type systems may be heading this way, but may or may not be there yet)
The deciding factor on kW is the pressure drop created by your m/c hoods, ducting and cyclone. He reckons that with correctly sized short ducting (i.e. as in a very small shop, or (and i'm interpreting here) with one located close to the machine using a shortish a 150mm flexible you can get by with less than the 5hp and 16in impeller of his 'stock' system. The 16in impeller 5hp version draws about 3.8hp in use, leaving a safe margin if extra ducts are left open. (check out the table of HP/impeller size/cfm/duct length on his dust collection basics page) He advises that the design formula suggests some alterations to the cyclone dimensions in this case though.
It seems you start getting decent function in short run/low pressure drop situations from about 2kW upwards. Longer or more restrictive duct runs need more grunt.
The problem on fine filtration seems to be that it would be hugely expensive to run HEPA standard filters without an effective cyclone, in that they cost too much and don't clean that easily - they would block and need replacement too often.
He claims his cyclone proportions work very well (this view is borne out by users), says that it's common for makers to offer much less effective proportions to save money/space, but is equally clear that his dimensions come from the long established formula developed by one of the US professional bodies and used by makers of commercial dust collection systems.
By this the units you mentioned seem to be on the lower end on kW, how well they might filter or separate dust depends on the design and spec.
The problem at the end of the day is that most DIY/hobbyist systems seem to be underspecified. If you want something off the shelf the Super Gorilla system available from Oneida's UK rep (see http://www.oneida-air.com/gorilla_3hp.php - there's 2hp, 3 hp or 5hp options) seems worth checking out as its more in the space Bill is talking about. I've not looked closely at it as for me the DIY route seemed much more cost effective.
There seem to be a few other highly specified off the shelf cyclone and cartridge filter systems like this available in the US, but i'm not sure what's around in the UK other than this. It's likely too that the more professional systems available here don't surface in the mags. (e.g. the Felder units seem worth a look, but i didn't check them out properly as the price put me off)
Anyway...
