Beware the cheats!

[doctor Bob]

I don't get this thread.

There is a market for all levels of furniture just as there is for cars, from Dacia duster to Rolls royce, they both do exactly the same fundermental thing, but are hugely different in quality.
More cheap cars are sold than expensive, the marketing for high end has to be very targeted, but there is definately a market.
The trick is to weed out the people who only want a dacia if you are targeting high end.

 

[Jacob]

....
The trick is to weed out the people who only want a dacia if you are targeting high end.

Or any chosen point in between.

 

[tomatwark]

If you sell 4 kitchens at £20000 vat free that makes £80,000. Why make a 5th kitchen and lose all that profit paying VAT? :lol:

If you do that say in 8 months, what do you do you for the other 4?

You either go on holiday or turn down work and then get a reputation for always being holiday and turning down work, result your business goes bust.

Do cash work and then get chased by HMRC

As soon as you hit the limit you have register.

The VAT limit is not a hurdle, and it does not take much to get above it even on your own, I was over it before I employed anyone.

 

[tomatwark]

I don't get this thread.

There is a market for all levels of furniture just as there is for cars, from Dacia duster to Rolls royce, they both do exactly the same fundermental thing, but are hugely different in quality.
More cheap cars are sold than expensive, the marketing for high end has to be very targeted, but there is definately a market.
The trick is to weed out the people who only want a dacia if you are targeting high end.

Which is what was said earlier.

BUT then Jacob got involved and it became a competition to see who could get the moderators to lock it :lol:

And there is nothing on telly.

 

[Jacob]

If you sell 4 kitchens at £20000 vat free that makes £80,000. Why make a 5th kitchen and lose all that profit paying VAT? :lol:

If you do that say in 8 months, what do you do you for the other 4?

You either go on holiday or turn down work and then get a reputation for always being holiday and turning down work, result your business goes bust.

Do cash work and then get chased by HMRC

As soon as you hit the limit you have register.

The VAT limit is not a hurdle, and it does not take much to get above it even on your own, I was over it before I employed anyone.

What you do with the spare time (after the holiday and the other treats) is invest even more time in the 4 items you are making so that they are even better in quality.
VAT as a hurdle depends on what you are doing - theoretically you could have zero outgoings and earn the full £83000. Not sure how you'd do this - massage parlour perhaps?
A "craftsman" can earn more adding his higher craft skills to low cost materials so presumably a one man goldsmith might have a prob which a potter wouldn't. It's all a bit unfair and unbalanced. Income tax makes more sense.

 

[Jacob]

....

BUT then Jacob got involved and it became a competition to see who could get the moderators to lock it :lol:

And there is nothing on telly.

Lot of people desperately looking for excuses (or someone to blame) for not being able to make a living!

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Jacob, you still haven't answered the question of why almost all designer makers teach in their workshops to make ends meet. Or have second jobs, or do site joinery. Almost all of the others employ people to maximise the workshop overhead, which has problems of its own such as extra H & S headaches, let alone the need to have the work coming in to keep everyone employed. Which just means the proprietor does not make anymore and becomes a salesman. Are all these makers idiots missing the way to actually make stuff for a living, or is the situation actually very difficult, nearly impossible to make the figures add up.

And referring to the kitchen example above. Desigbing, making and fitting 4 kitchens a year for a one man band maker is quite a tall order. It presupposes they can get 4 kitchen jobs to run concurrently ( how are you out getting the work and doing it at the same time?) It also presupposes a one man band has the scoring panel saw for sheet goods, edgebanders, efficient ways of fitting cup hinges and drawer runners, maybe a spindle with auto feed for making cope and stick doors and a drum sander, domino..... But at the same time add craftsmanship that Neville Johnson et al, cannot. Hand work and interesting design that now will not allow all those industry standard expediences to actually work. We already know you'll not allow us fancy dovetails and other bespoke touches, as they are too fussy and unnecessary. How narrow the tightrope do you want us to walk? Incidentally if this one man outfit could make 4 kitchens a year with hand made curios that differentiated them from Neville Johnson, what salary do you think would be left for the maker? I recon 1/8 the gross.

Mike. I'm

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

Jacob, you still haven't answered the question of why almost all designer makers teach .....

Either they are not good at their trade so have to supplement their income - or, more interestingly, they are good at teaching, which is a highly respectable trade in its own right.
Or a bit of both - I have a theory that a good teacher might well be someone who has a problem learning and so has empathy with other learners and the problems thereof.
In the meantime there are millions of designers, makers, craftsmen, doing their stuff without having to scrabble about for another income, so your basic premise is wrong to start with.

 

[doctor Bob]

Hello,


And referring to the kitchen example above. Desigbing, making and fitting 4 kitchens a year for a one man band maker is quite a tall order. It presupposes they can get 4 kitchen jobs to run concurrently ( how are you out getting the work and doing it at the same time?) It also presupposes a one man band has the scoring panel saw for sheet goods, edgebanders, efficient ways of fitting cup hinges and drawer runners, maybe a spindle with auto feed for making cope and stick doors and a drum sander, domino..... But at the same time add craftsmanship that Neville Johnson et al, cannot. Hand work and interesting design that now will not allow all those industry standard expediences to actually work. We already know you'll not allow us fancy dovetails and other bespoke touches, as they are too fussy and unnecessary. How narrow the tightrope do you want us to walk? Incidentally if this one man outfit could make 4 kitchens a year with hand made curios that differentiated them from Neville Johnson, what salary do you think would be left for the maker? I recon 1/8 the gross.

Mike. I'm

A one man band could easily do 10 decent kitchens a year (Total £100K +) if they know what they are doing, piece of p!ss, machinery is built up as you go along, know loads of people who've done it. 1/8 is incredibly low.

 

[tomatwark]

machinery is built up as you go along, know loads of people who've done it.

This is how I did it.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,


And referring to the kitchen example above. Desigbing, making and fitting 4 kitchens a year for a one man band maker is quite a tall order. It presupposes they can get 4 kitchen jobs to run concurrently ( how are you out getting the work and doing it at the same time?) It also presupposes a one man band has the scoring panel saw for sheet goods, edgebanders, efficient ways of fitting cup hinges and drawer runners, maybe a spindle with auto feed for making cope and stick doors and a drum sander, domino..... But at the same time add craftsmanship that Neville Johnson et al, cannot. Hand work and interesting design that now will not allow all those industry standard expediences to actually work. We already know you'll not allow us fancy dovetails and other bespoke touches, as they are too fussy and unnecessary. How narrow the tightrope do you want us to walk? Incidentally if this one man outfit could make 4 kitchens a year with hand made curios that differentiated them from Neville Johnson, what salary do you think would be left for the maker? I recon 1/8 the gross.

Mike.

A one man band could easily do 10 decent kitchens a year if they know what they are doing, piece of p!ss, machinery is built up as you go along, know loads of people who've done it. 1/8 is incredibly low.

Hello,

I was not talking about making to the industry standard, but adding hand made features that Jacob says we must, to differentiate us from the industry standard makers. Anyone can make MFC carcasses, buy in all the drawer/door fronts and just be an assembly guy and fitter. But we are talking about designer makers trying to make solid wood furniture.

With respect, you employ what, 5 people and have 4 siders and Brookman machines panel saws that cost more than my entire kit, you are not playing in the same game. I'm not saying your business does not have difficulties, but none of the same ones as me, Chris Tribe above and my like. When was the last time your guys made hand cut dovetailed drawers with slips and cedar bottoms. When was the last time you went around small timber suppliers for fiddleback sycamore or curly cherry. I'll tell you, never, because it would have put you out of business.

Rolls Royce can afford 100s of thousands in advertising in Montecarlo to target the people who don't want Dacia's.....How do I target the people who don't want MFC kitchens?

Mike.

 

[Jake]

You can't make people want hand cut dovetailed drawers with slips and cedar bottoms and if you insist on that as a quality standard for your production you are fishing in a very small and shallow rich pool. None of those things are that meaningful in fitted furniture, where they are in reality just ways of conveying snob value. They might be relevant for something intended to last 100+ years, but no-one believes that of fitted furniture.

 

[doctor Bob]

Hello,

I was not talking about making to the industry standard, but adding hand made features that Jacob says we must, to differentiate us from the industry standard makers. Anyone can make MFC carcasses, buy in all the drawer/door fronts and just be an assembly guy and fitter. But we are talking about designer makers trying to make solid wood furniture.

With respect, you employ what, 5 people and have 4 siders and Brookman machines panel saws that cost more than my entire kit, you are not playing in the same game. I'm not saying your business does not have difficulties, but none of the same ones as me, Chris Tribe above and my like. When was the last time your guys made hand cut dovetailed drawers with slips and cedar bottoms. When was the last time you went around small timber suppliers for fiddleback sycamore or curly cherry. I'll tell you, never, because it would have put you out of business.

Rolls Royce can afford 100s of thousands in advertising in Montecarlo to target the people who don't want Dacia's.....How do I target the people who don't want MFC kitchens?

Mike.

So you assume I buy it all in, all my kitchens are MFC industry standard, i was gifted brookmans and 4 siders from day 1 and just went out there and employed 5 people. You assume my guys are monkeys who can't cut a dovetail. When was the last time you saw an advert for say, a Pagano, koenigsegg, Noble, Ultima, Atom etc. Do you know what i think I'll drop out of this thread, as you obviously have it soooo difficult and I can't possibly understand.

 

[tomatwark]

Mike

What we are trying to tell you is that there is not a living JUST doing what you want to do.

Like Bob my guys are not monkey's putting together bought in components, I have two apprentices training to be cabinetmakers at the moment one of them is currently making some Mackintosh chairs.

We make everything here, but I started out with about £2500 in machinery and took on what I needed to, so I could live.

You have to be prepared to take the rough with the smooth until you are in the position to be choosey about what you take on.

I am curious why Chris Tribe is different to us though, like Bob he makes some really great furniture, but if you look at his website he is not above using MDF and Poplar when it is the right thing to do.

I am going to drop out of this now as you don't seem to understand that we are trying to help you here.

 

[Mr T]

Do you know what i think I'll drop out of this thread, as you obviously have it soooo difficult and I can't possibly understand.

Mr Grumpy!!

Chris

 

[tomatwark]

Chris

Do you teach because you want too or because you have too?

 

[Jacob]

......

I was not talking about making to the industry standard, but adding hand made features that Jacob says we must, to differentiate us from the industry standard makers. ....

I didn't say that at all.

Mike

What we are trying to tell you is that there is not a living JUST doing what you want to do........

Yes.
And no! You do have to like what you are doing, not least because if you get any pleasure out of it you will put more in to it, and it may be a little compensation for it not making you a millionaire.

 

[Mr T]

Chris

Do you teach because you want too or because you have too?

I bit of both. Just off out to drive down to Wiltshire. I'll explain in more detail this evening.

Chris

 

[woodbrains]

So you assume I buy it all in, all my kitchens are MFC industry standard, i was gifted brookmans and 4 siders from day 1 and just went out there and employed 5 people. You assume my guys are monkeys who can't cut a dovetail. When was the last time you saw an advert for say, a Pagano, koenigsegg, Noble, Ultima, Atom etc. Do you know what i think I'll drop out of this thread, as you obviously have it soooo difficult and I can't possibly understand.

Hello,

Don't put words into my mouth, Dr Bob. I'm not saying any of those things, I didn't say any of those things, you did. You have your business model and it works, you no doubt work very hard. But you do have a production set up, and it is not something I want to do. I don't want to work with mfc carcasses,I don't want to break out frame and panel doors on a spindle and make boxes on a Brookman. I don't want to spray everything in whatever pastel colour is in vogue with the WAGS at the moment. I want to work wood because I love wood. I like the challenge of the design. I didn't start off making the things I do to transmogrify into a production enterprise that has little resmblance to what I started and employ people to make ecconomies of scale. Why would I get into woodwork, I might as well be making cardboard boxes or tin cans to make money.

And in any case, where do all these 20 grand kitchen jobs come from, if you read my earlier posts I was saying how I can't get people to pay more than 5000 for a suite of walnut bedroom furniture.

I'm not asking for ways to make my business work, I know it is marginal and I stopped trying a few years ago. I was actually wondering why it should be marginal, when there are very affluent people around, but who will still only buy cheap imported rubbish.

Mike.

 

[No skills]

Still going..