bevel-down planes... sell me!

[Peter Sefton]

After all this BU hype I am keener than ever to give the 62 a good play and test at the” No 62 Bench Plane Battle”

 

[condeesteso]

Broad response, thank you! But not at all conclusive in my own opinion (certainly not conclusive enough to cut'n'paste next time). I think the stated positives of BD planes are almost all flawed, and issues regarding BU generally overstated.

Chip-breaker: acknowledged as a likely problem area by anyone being honest about them. Matthew even says so on the WH site. I accept they are essential with the old thin blades, but that is only because a thin blade is a bad engineering compromise in the first place. So you need a blade and chipbreaker in combination to actually get the assembly to work properly. Using the chipbreaker to create the effect a steeper angle of cut brings other issues with it: the throat clogs very easily, fragments trapped between chipbreaker and blade.

Lateral adjustment: BD generally have more lateral adjustment, but enough is enough and BU have enough plus some. If I ever grind a blade so off-square that I need all the adjustment a BD plane offers, then I deserve problems, and will get them with the chipbreaker again. So most of that lateral adjustment on a BD is of no value.

Mouth adjustment: massively quicker on a BU (I refer to my experiences with the Lie block and 62). On my Baileys I have to remove blade assembly, slacken the 2 lock screws, adjust, lock up, replace blade assembly... and do it all again til I get what I wanted. ON the BU you see what you are getting as you adjust. I do not accept that the 2-part sole creates any issues re flatness etc. The fact that a second part can move in relation to the first does not make it harder to produce flat or keep flat.

Blade setting: it is implied (stated even) that BU are better for beginners, easier to set-up and use. To me this has the whiff of plane snobbery about it. The LNs I refer to above have no mechanical lateral adjustment, you do it by hand and feel. There is an argument that in lateral adjustment, the BD is for the novice, not the other way round.

Repeatability: I don't think either wins - there is enough play in the location points for it to be near impossible to remove the blade or blade assembly, and have it go back exactly where it was. Neither is better or worse.

My view is that the BU is a more intelligent design solution - fewer parts, easier to adjust quickly and very accurately, blade-swapping gives versatility. But in fairness I am comparing premium BU planes, with more modestly-priced BD planes (assuming old Records and Stanleys were more modestly priced?) - but then my Lie No3 BD has all the chipbreaker issues of the old ones, and adjusting the mouth is a pain.

Well set-up BD planes are great... but however hard I try I will not make any of them actually better than a BU equivalent, and they will always be the first to offer up problems, mainly in the mouth / chipbreaker area.

But for some reason, I really like having both! And yes Jim, infills can be extremely good and one day I may have an S&S, but £££!!

 

[Jacob]

.....
Chip-breaker: acknowledged as a likely problem area by anyone being honest about them. ...

No, honestly! Problems could be due to not having things screwed down tight enough, or bad fit between cap iron and blade - both easy to fix.

.... the throat clogs very easily, fragments trapped between chipbreaker and blade.

Not for me (except the odd occasion when I've tried an impossible cut i.e. forgot to set the blade). Trapped fragments means bad or loose fit

Lateral adjustment: BD generally have more lateral adjustment, but enough is enough and BU have enough plus some. If I ever grind a blade so off-square that I need all the adjustment a BD plane offers, then I deserve problems, and will get them with the chipbreaker again. So most of that lateral adjustment on a BD is of no value.

BU have no lateral adjustment at all IME (unless you loosen the lever cap first but even then the adjustment is crude with too little leverage) but it's not the end of the world - what else are pin hammers for? But if you do have a good tilt mechanism then it does get used a lot, specially with cambered blades and/or board edge joinery

Mouth adjustment: .....

Not worth the bother on a BD, don't even try it! Then you don't miss it either.

Blade setting: it is implied (stated even) that BU are better for beginners, easier to set-up and use. To me this has the whiff of plane snobbery about it. The LNs I refer to above have no mechanical lateral adjustment, you do it by hand and feel. There is an argument that in lateral adjustment, the BD is for the novice, not the other way round.

No snobbery - I'm all for making life easier but these planes all have their strengths and weaknesses. I'm more often accused of reverse snobbery so I can't win either way. LN are at least honest in recognising that a short norris adjuster is pointless (for tilting)

Repeatability: I don't think either wins - there is enough play in the location points for it to be near impossible to remove the blade or blade assembly, and have it go back exactly where it was. Neither is better or worse.

My BU is definitely worse - the norris adjuster is such a finely engineered good fit that it come out with the blade and I have to fiddle about getting it back in. Perhaps it'll be better when it has worn in a bit.

My view is that the BU is a more intelligent design solution

Yebbut frinstance the norris adjuster looks like a more intelligent solution but it doesn't work! Intelligence is more than skin deep.

......
Well set-up BD planes are great... but however hard I try I will not make any of them actually better than a BU equivalent, and they will always be the first to offer up problems, mainly in the mouth / chipbreaker area....

I'd recommend paying a bit more attention to this mouth/chipbreaker problem as it is an easy fix. Same as RichardT's "thrrrrrrrap!" :lol:
I've got both and sometimes one seems to be working better than the other and vice versa. I think the BU has the edge sometimes but only with very difficult grain where it's touch or go anyway, and scraper or sandpaper is the next step. But the BD has the edge on usability and convenience, once you have cured the "thrrrrrrraps", and hand sharpening is a lot easier
And they are so much cheaper - we live in a post hand-tool era where the market is awash with excellent old hand tools at very low prices.

PS re. cap iron prob above, it might help to back off the blade contact edge of the cap iron a touch, to make it a closed tighter fit at the sharp end so that shavings can't get in. And ditto with the top edge so that shavings will lift over - and polishing helps here. I've had cap irons which were just cut off square at the end so shavings would just jam up against the edge straightaway.
PPS it might also be due to having the frog forwards, the less supported blade can then "thrrrrrrrap" and allow the sharp end of a shaving under the cap iron.

 

[bugbear]

.....
Chip-breaker: acknowledged as a likely problem area by anyone being honest about them. ...

No, honestly! Problems could be due to not having things screwed down tight enough, or bad fit between cap iron and blade - both easy to fix.

.... the throat clogs very easily, fragments trapped between chipbreaker and blade.

Not for me (except the odd occasion when I've tried an impossible cut i.e. forgot to set the blade). Trapped fragments means bad or loose fit

Lateral adjustment: BD generally have more lateral adjustment, but enough is enough and BU have enough plus some. If I ever grind a blade so off-square that I need all the adjustment a BD plane offers, then I deserve problems, and will get them with the chipbreaker again. So most of that lateral adjustment on a BD is of no value.

BU have no lateral adjustment at all IME (unless you loosen the lever cap first but even then the adjustment is crude with too little leverage) but it's not the end of the world - what else are pin hammers for? But if you do have a good tilt mechanism then it does get used a lot, specially with cambered blades and/or board edge joinery

Mouth adjustment: .....

Not worth the bother on a BD, don't even try it! Then you don't miss it either.

Blade setting: it is implied (stated even) that BU are better for beginners, easier to set-up and use. To me this has the whiff of plane snobbery about it. The LNs I refer to above have no mechanical lateral adjustment, you do it by hand and feel. There is an argument that in lateral adjustment, the BD is for the novice, not the other way round.

No snobbery - I'm all for making life easier but these planes all have their strengths and weaknesses. I'm more often accused of reverse snobbery so I can't win either way. LN are at least honest in recognising that a short norris adjuster is pointless (for tilting)

Repeatability: I don't think either wins - there is enough play in the location points for it to be near impossible to remove the blade or blade assembly, and have it go back exactly where it was. Neither is better or worse.

My BU is definitely worse - the norris adjuster is such a finely engineered good fit that it come out with the blade and I have to fiddle about getting it back in. Perhaps it'll be better when it has worn in a bit.

My view is that the BU is a more intelligent design solution

Yebbut frinstance the norris adjuster looks like a more intelligent solution but it doesn't work! Intelligence is more than skin deep.

......
Well set-up BD planes are great... but however hard I try I will not make any of them actually better than a BU equivalent, and they will always be the first to offer up problems, mainly in the mouth / chipbreaker area....

I'd recommend paying a bit more attention to this mouth/chipbreaker problem as it is an easy fix. Same as RichardT's "thrrrrrrrap!" :lol:
I've got both and sometimes one seems to be working better than the other and vice versa. I think the BU has the edge sometimes but only with very difficult grain where it's touch or go anyway, and scraper or sandpaper is the next step. But the BD has the edge on usability and convenience, once you have cured the "thrrrrrrraps", and hand sharpening is a lot easier
And they are so much cheaper - we live in a post hand-tool era where the market is awash with excellent old hand tools at very low prices.

PS re. cap iron prob above, it might help to back off the blade contact edge of the cap iron a touch, to make it a closed tighter fit at the sharp end so that shavings can't get in. And ditto with the top edge so that shavings will lift over - and polishing helps here. I've had cap irons which were just cut off square at the end so shavings would just jam up against the edge straightaway.
PPS it might also be due to having the frog forwards, the less supported blade can then "thrrrrrrrap" and allow the sharp end of a shaving under the cap iron.

These BD planes do sound complicated... ;-)

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

....
These BD planes do sound complicated... ;-)

BugBear

Can be if you get a dud.
Most of them are OK though, and cheap, easy enough to fix (not rocket science!) very nice to use and with strengths of their own.

I've been comparing Record BD with LN/LV BU.
What about posh end BD as compared to ditto BU? Would you have a LN 5 1/2 or a LN 62? Would the LN 5 1/2 have chipbreaker problems? I wouldn't know.

 

[bugbear]

Would the LN 5 1/2 have chipbreaker problems? I wouldn't know.

I wouldn't expect it to behave any differently to the chipbreaker in a LN 4 1/2, which you already know about.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Would the LN 5 1/2 have chipbreaker problems? I wouldn't know.

I wouldn't expect it to behave any differently to the chipbreaker in a LN 4 1/2, which you already know about.

BugBear

Oh yes I borrowed Brian's some years ago. :shock:
Remind me what I said about it BB, I've completely forgotten. :roll:

 

[bugbear]

Remind me what I said about it BB, I've completely forgotten. :roll:

Must be an age thing... :lol: :lol: :lol:

BugBear

 

[Richard T]

S'right ... so far we have just been comparing BU to BD , any old make. We need a level playing field.

Let's not go comparing

With

You were wanting a good rebate a while back Jacob. What do you think? (Might be a tad pricey though...AND you wouldn't like the adjuster )

 

[Jacob]

...
You were wanting a good rebate a while back Jacob. What do you think? (Might be a tad pricey though...AND you wouldn't like the adjuster )

What is that weird looking item? Some sort of *** lighter?

 

[Peter T]

Would the LN 5 1/2 have chipbreaker problems? I wouldn't know.

Mine doesn't!

It's a fully machined, properly engineered piece of equipment as opposed to a bent piece of sheet metal.

 

[Richard T]

I think you fill it up through the brass thing on top. Dunno where the flint goes though ...

It's a "copy" (re - working) by Konrad wassiname of that one - off Norris that made the most money ever.
I must say though, I'd quite like one.
I'm making do with a Zippo at the moment.

 

[Jacob]

Remind me what I said about it BB, I've completely forgotten. :roll:

Must be an age thing... :lol: :lol: :lol:

BugBear

What you too? Come on pull yourself together!

 

[woodbloke]

Perhaps the very best thing about BU planes is that you don't have to consider that hideous, ghastly 2 part chipbreaker that some BD planes seem to sport - Rob... :mrgreen: outa here by the fastest means possible!

 

[bugbear]

You were wanting a good rebate a while back Jacob. What do you think? (Might be a tad pricey though...AND you wouldn't like the adjuster )

Ah - I think that's a (rather fine) replica of the Record Price setting Norris I was trying to recall recently. I think quite a few of the modern infill makers did replicas in the end, both out of interest and because of market demand.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Would the LN 5 1/2 have chipbreaker problems? I wouldn't know.

Mine doesn't!

It's a fully machined, properly engineered piece of equipment as opposed to a bent piece of sheet metal.

Mine don't either, though they are all tatty old bits of bent metal!

 

[Paul Chapman]

Perhaps the very best thing about BU planes is that you don't have to consider that hideous, ghastly 2 part chipbreaker that some BD planes seem to sport - Rob... :mrgreen: outa here by the fastest means possible!

I heard that........... :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Richard T]

Yup BB it's by Konrad (Sauer or Steiner?). Don't like what he's done with the back handle though - the Norris moved properly side to side on a rounded block: this one just pivots at the front.
The one pictured is (I think) his prototype, the commission he got was for Ebony infill. Maybe I shouldn't blame Konrad for the design, rather the commissioner.

 

[woodbloke]

Perhaps the very best thing about BU planes is that you don't have to consider that hideous, ghastly 2 part chipbreaker that some BD planes seem to sport - Rob... :mrgreen: outa here by the fastest means possible!

I heard that........... :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

:lol: :lol: - Rob

 

[jimi43]

I sharpened my Record SS No.7 this morning....and strangely...I forgot to drop the bit on my toe again.

I guess I don't have the skill to appreciate it as it was intended..... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Complete waste of money those steel toe-cap boots! :roll:

:-"

Jim