Bevel angle
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David C
In Memorium
The original Veritas honing guide has a straight, wide roller.
One has to be careful to clamp the chisel or plane blade square in the guide or the edge produced will not be square.
The advantage of the Eclipse guide is the narrow roller which does not dictate to the chisel. It has wiggle room. The edge can be held down evenly with two forefingers.
Eclipse side clamping is better than Veritas, which struggles with narrow chisels.
I have honed many, many mortice chisels in the Eclipse, they just sit on the bars.
Best wishes,
David Charlesworth
One has to be careful to clamp the chisel or plane blade square in the guide or the edge produced will not be square.
The advantage of the Eclipse guide is the narrow roller which does not dictate to the chisel. It has wiggle room. The edge can be held down evenly with two forefingers.
Eclipse side clamping is better than Veritas, which struggles with narrow chisels.
I have honed many, many mortice chisels in the Eclipse, they just sit on the bars.
Best wishes,
David Charlesworth
Then how would you know?
its as if a translator is needed with you. I thought we were both speaking english.
For nearly everything else, I use a shallow primary/secondary combo and polish the tip of a tool at a high enough angle to avoid damage. This takes about 30 seconds. It's documented, published, I've demonstrated it on video with a totally dull tool.
Faster than what sellers shows, what you describe and better results. Less to purchase, and far more consistent.
For mortise chisels other than very tall cross section chisels, I *always* do something that I don't usually do otherwise - hone the bevel of a chisel flat. I don't know that you have the nerve endings to understand why that would be done, and I'm guessing you're going to tell us to drill and pare or drill and mortise with the back side of the mortise chisel or something else of the like - negating the function of the tool and making the work less easy.
Go for it. A round bevel creates sloppy progress bevel down and mortising bevel up negates the ability to rotate chips loose at the bottom of the cut and causes you to cut directly across the grain instead of up the grain (the latter is far easier) without tilting the tool.
Oval bolstered mortisers and other deep mortise chisels are only sharpened differently because they are in a deep mortise and loss of bevel control isn't much of an issue deep, and because a giant bevel creates friction (such a problem doesn't exist with firmers and sash mortise chisels). I didn't read nicholson or parrot an instructor from the 1950s to figure these things out, I used the tools instead. Oval bolstered chisels don't have an overall curved bevel (it's flat between the top and bottom) for a very specific reason - the top is rounded over to adjust deep in mortises (if it's left sharp, at depth, you can't adjust the chisel up and down in the mortise without fully removing it from the cut), and the tip is rounded over or sharpened at a secondary high angle because the primary bevel isn't steep enough to hold up.
If those tools worked better rounded from top to bottom, the grinders at the factories would've shipped them that way. They either shipped them as I described, or perfectly flat as they're shown in the marples catalog. They're grinding them on a round wheel - there's no reason they'd make them flat on the primary for ease.
I haven't ever seen anyone talk about all of the above, but i vaguely recall you talking about cutting mortises with the bevel facing the open side. I couldn't tell you for sure that nicholson advises any of this, only that nicholson is a good way to find out when you have a scrub plane and can find no place where it's an advantage that it then becomes unsurprising that a text written with care for accuracy would confirm that. And then once you've laid the foundation, you may learn nuances from the text that you haven't discovered by doing.
If you're afraid of getting better at something, then nicholson is probably a bad thing to look through.
Oh yes you are!
You're right about your hand tool advice. It's not something anyone would pay for. But my comment stands - since you have clarified by volume that most of your work was done not by hand tools, I'm not shooting barbs about the fact that it was more practical for you to use power tools. It does help explain why you have such definitive opinions about thing that are off the mark and think anyone who knows more about something than you do is "going down a rabbit hole".
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Yes you are right I just had a go. Never tried it before - I was thinking of the Stanley's narrow gap.
But I can't see why anybody would bother doing it so slowly and you can't get the rounded bevel, which is a desirable feature on a mortice chisel. In fact the only chisel form where the rounded bevel has a use and is not just a by-product of fast freehand honing.
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David C
In Memorium
I do the rounded bevel on my grinder.
Honing is kept for the edge.
David
Honing is kept for the edge.
David
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I don't use a grinder (except for remedial work).
More the 2 or 3 stone Paul Sellers style but with a dip (start at 30º dip to say 25º) so that the whole rounded bevel hits the stone. Maybe not the whole bevel for the last few passes on the finest stone.
Very quick and often, to keep a nice edge, and about as easy as sharpening a pencil, but quicker - just a dab really, a quick touch up to speed up the job without having a break for sharpening.
I couldn't tell you if I've ever sharpened a mortise chisel in a guide - maybe 12 years ago, but were I in your place, rather than being so confident that it didn't work, I would've probably tried before guessing it didn't. All of the follow-up false accusations about what I or others have done or what can't be done when I've done everything you advocate, but you've done none of mine, and often follow David C's posts with half cocked advice....
maybe you would do well to observe a little bit more next time and wait and try something. One person next to the other here (as in standing in the same shop doing the same thing) maintaining tools and then seeing how they would hold up, you wouldn't fare well.
It's not a matter of something working -all of the methods work. David C's method literally worked tops for me the very first iteration. It is a very good way for people to get started, and for some to use all the time.
Paul Sellers' method? I get a lot of tools from people who want something refitted, rehardened, redone. I've never gotten a single rounded bevel chisel that was properly finished at the edge, and quite often the rounding work is sloppy, which makes it even harder to do it - let alone prepare an edge that could actually be even enough to provide a finish-planed surface.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Well they seem to work OK and with less effort/cost than many others seem to spend.
It does , but slowly and you can't get a rounded bevel and you have to take it to the grindstone and so on. What a waste of time!
It is as far as I'm concerned. What else should I be concerned about?
Hate to point out the obvious (
) - but anybody who knows how to do it wouldn't be sending their tools to you in the first place. What did you expect?If you advertised a pencil sharpening service you'd probably get clients too!
There was a comical exchange a bit back about sharpening serrated edge bread knives. If you google the subject you will find pages of complicated information on this apparently near impossible task; can be done with the right kit - lots of it and takes time...etc
But I've been sharpening serrated edge knives for more than 50 years, very easily with no special kit. I know my method works because I've never had the slightest problem slicing bread, cakes, you name it.
The method is to give the knife a few swipes with a steel, every now and then. 10 seconds or so.
What am I doing wrong?
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xy mosian
Established Member
I learnt to sharpen chisels in the same way I learnt to tie shoelaces. Someone taught me the way then watched, and guided, me until I had it right. The woodwork master was Mr. Ibbotson, Tacky when he wasn't listening. Grinding was done on a horizontal wheel with an oil drip feed, and honing was freehand. We practised on marking knives, less pricey than chisels I expect. No mention was made of angle, just lift your hand lad, or drop it, until it looks right. Number representation of angles was only brought up in respect of possible exam questions.
These days, I gather, not many get that sort of education in woodwork. I wonder how many novices come to this forum looking to just get started. If Tacky Ibbotson had pointed me in the direction of this, and similar, threads to learn about sharpening chisels I would probably have given up.
xy
These days, I gather, not many get that sort of education in woodwork. I wonder how many novices come to this forum looking to just get started. If Tacky Ibbotson had pointed me in the direction of this, and similar, threads to learn about sharpening chisels I would probably have given up.
xy
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Exactly.
I learned it at school from Mr Pine the woodwork teacher. About 1956 I reckon. No mention of angles but just "don't round it over". Jigs were virtually unknown. They were around but uncommon - just for amateurs and "gentleman woodworkers"
I learned how to chop a mortice efficiently from Mr Ford about 1982. Actually that was a surprise as it's not obvious and it could take some years to hit on it yourself, if ever.
Both cases a demonstration from yer man was available as often as necessary.
Problem we have is that unless we do a video of our own we have to describe it in words, against a noisy backdrop of obsessive alternative theories and "correct" ways, alternative gadgets, videos by would-be gurus from around the world basically telling you how difficult it is, and tool sellers glittering solutions to this imaginary problem.
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xy mosian
Established Member
In my case it was, from memory, a half lap joint to begin with and then a mortice and tenon.
I agree about the video, except that the video will then join a great number of videos all claiming to be the 'right' way. I would urge anyone needing to learn a hand skill to find someone with that skill and ask for guidance. Stick with that person to find a degree a of competance before looking elswhere to finness technique or deal with trickier material, be that steel or timber.
xy
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Just watched a couple of vids to see how the "experts" chop mortices. Two Peters; Follansbee and Sellers. I was quite surprised by their sheer clumsiness. Mr Ford would not have approved!
The bigger problem in this thread seems to be one "guru" claiming that all other methods are difficult.
The only videos of anyone cutting a mortise professionally - at least that I've seen - are chinese woodworking videos.
There's a fellow who was a professional woodworker (I think he takes students now) sitting on some kind of rosewood on a saw bench type deal and chopping a mortise holding the handle of a tool (it's sharpened flat, of course, no rounding or nonsense), bevel down and without ever letting go of the handle or screwing around.
I would imagine that he would cut a neat mortise in rosewood at pace in about 2 minutes (I can't find the videos). his name was xuemegong or something of the sort. much of his mortise work was marked freehand through mortises, not junk, no glass. no amazon links, etc.
He would've learned in a paying shop, not from a 1950s english or american expert showing students how to do mortises but using a hollow chisel mortiser while working, or drilling and paring on site.
If there was an appreciable amount of competent hand mortising in England, the chisels wouldn't have gone out of production in the early 1900s only to disappear from stock entirely in the mid 1900s (after older stock finish ground and sold was gone).
The demise of hand work was probably 25 years or more earlier in the US as nobody was smacking the fingers of the next guy doing work a little bit faster with power tools. They were copying him instead. Those who didn't ended up sweeping factory floors.
There's a fellow who was a professional woodworker (I think he takes students now) sitting on some kind of rosewood on a saw bench type deal and chopping a mortise holding the handle of a tool (it's sharpened flat, of course, no rounding or nonsense), bevel down and without ever letting go of the handle or screwing around.
I would imagine that he would cut a neat mortise in rosewood at pace in about 2 minutes (I can't find the videos). his name was xuemegong or something of the sort. much of his mortise work was marked freehand through mortises, not junk, no glass. no amazon links, etc.
He would've learned in a paying shop, not from a 1950s english or american expert showing students how to do mortises but using a hollow chisel mortiser while working, or drilling and paring on site.
If there was an appreciable amount of competent hand mortising in England, the chisels wouldn't have gone out of production in the early 1900s only to disappear from stock entirely in the mid 1900s (after older stock finish ground and sold was gone).
The demise of hand work was probably 25 years or more earlier in the US as nobody was smacking the fingers of the next guy doing work a little bit faster with power tools. They were copying him instead. Those who didn't ended up sweeping factory floors.
xy mosian
Established Member
Sorry Jacob I missed this post.
I am not suprised that you found variation in Morticing methods. I'll bet they all produced a suitable mortice though. I enjoy the process of woodworking so speed is not necessary for me. Although I was taught using a firmer chisel, I don't remember a Pig Sticker, I don't have one and so make do with a Stanley bevel edge chisels. Perhaps not optimum but they work for me.
As I said I enjoy the process perhaps more than the result.
xy
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I just find speed interesting. Mainly because it was obviously a big priority with the trade (then and now) and techniques and tools are all about efficiency and optimisation of effort. I've spent a lot of time undoing old work (repair, restoration etc). It gets a bit archaeological and interesting when you work out why something that looks a bit of a mess is in fact ruthlessly practical, or an odd design detail at first sight could look like a mistake but has a good reason - such as accommodating differential movement e.g. loose fitted drawer runners.
