Bevel angle

[D_W]

Paul sellers method doesn't work that well in practice, though. It's an OK way to get started, requires a gaggle of diamond stones and finishes an edge less well than a cheaper and faster way to do the same thing.

Advising beginners away from a guide is ill advised. First understand sharp, then understand durability with sharp, then figure out how to get the feel of it freehand.

forgoing a grinder for accurate and low effort sharpening is not optimal. IT can be done, but it's not optimal. I use a guide for nothing, not chisels, not moulding plane irons, not skews, not drill bits - but I got a sense of sharpness on the first try that nobody will get freehand when they aren't pre-conditioned to nail things. Nobody is naturally pre-conditioned.

 

[Jacob]

Paul sellers method doesn't work that well in practice, ...

Oh yes it does!
It's very much the universal sharpening method used by craftsmen everywhere since the stone age, with small variations.

 

[TheTiddles]

Ah, there’s something so reassuring about a sharpening thread going over the same ploughed furrow for the last 15 years.

If the chisel is sharp enough to do what you want, it’s sharp enough.

I don’t know a single woodworker who’s work impresses me that doesn’t use a grinding guide, to the best of my knowledge they can all sharpen freehand and chose not to.

Try using the bevel angle that’s on them, if that works don’t change it. Unless you just like grinding metal, in which case there’s a sub forum for metalwork here

Enjoy!

Aidan

 

[Jacob]

I often wonder about what chisels are actually used for.
Carvers for carving obviously; they don't use jig's as far as I know - rounded double bevels, gouges etc.
Joiners and furniture makers; mortices, housings and dovetails more than anything else? Very busy chiselling - no time to fiddle with jigs this is where you really need to make sharpening quick and easy. You couldn't use a jig with a mortice chisel and in any case it needs a rounded bevel.
Other than that - just little trimming jobs here and there? Paring chisels for door fitting?
What did you last use a chisel for?

 

[AESamuel]

Oh yes it does!
It's very much the universal sharpening method used by craftsmen everywhere since the stone age, with small variations.

I always find this argument funny. Just because people did things one way for a long time doesn't mean it's any good. Would you prefer having surgery without anaesthetics, sterile conditions etc? That's the way they did it since the stone age after all!

(snip) Very busy chiselling - no time to fiddle with jigs this is where you really need to make sharpening quick and easy. You couldn't use a jig with a mortice chisel and in any case it needs a rounded bevel.
(snip)

Mortice chisels fit in many of the most popular jigs, and it also doesn't need a rounded bevel.
It takes me less than 10 seconds to pick up a jig, put in a chisel and set it to the right angle. Definitely not fiddly or slow!

 

[D_W]

I often wonder about what chisels are actually used for.
Carvers for carving obviously; they don't use jig's as far as I know - rounded double bevels, gouges etc.
Joiners and furniture makers; mortices, housings and dovetails more than anything else? Very busy chiselling - no time to fiddle with jigs this is where you really need to make sharpening quick and easy. You couldn't use a jig with a mortice chisel and in any case it needs a rounded bevel.
Other than that - just little trimming jobs here and there? Paring chisels for door fitting?
What did you last use a chisel for?

You should look at the pictures of mortise chisels in roubo and nicholson when people had to cut mortises and not drills.

They're flat on the bevel. oval bolstered chisels are often thinner and rounded on the tip, but few cut mortises 3-4" deep these days to take advantage of that. Few did in the past, too, as most of these chisels in matched sets show little loss of length - maybe only a small amount in a favorite size. I love the type but have only been able to find use for them making a large bed.

Paring chisels are for patternmakers as far as I can tell. I've made a bunch now already but will readily admit they're just a pretty novelty to me, with once and a while use on guitars (professionally used in some factories to trim the ends of bracing, but at a speed that few will work - they're a matter of economy there). Otherwise, it takes longer to get them than it does to just turn the chisel in-hand to do the same work cleaning up trimming.

Most professional carvers here in the states do all of their bulk carving with power tools and then maintain their gouges with buffs. No hand sharpening. One or two on forums claim to do a lot of carving and state that buffs aren't used, but the ones who show significant amounts of work use buffs.

I'm not aware really of anyone doing a lot of hand chiseling with any of these types of chisels for a living - people doing a volume of work with them are either amateurs or in museums. There was a prolific maker on one of the other forums in the states years ago who did do neat and tidy joinery (half blinds, etc) on his production work (which was period, so not cheap). All of the half blinds and wasting was done freehand with a router and narrow bit.

as far as I know in the US, most of the folks making custom chairs and other smaller furniture have moved over to powered tools (like dominos) to do commissions, aside from the few like curtis buchanan who have made a name for themselves making windsor style chairs or other chairs of the like. A different universe vs. cabinets, etc.

Not sure which type of chisels builds a blog or beginners class list fastest as that seems to be the widest use of them.

 

[Jacob]

You should look at the pictures of mortise chisels in roubo and nicholson when people had to cut mortises and not drills.

You should try using them instead of looking at pictures in books!
PS ditto paring chisels.
A very odd post - I didn't realise that nobody actually uses chisels at all!
So all this meticulous sharpening stuff is just for fantasy woodwork? Not entirely surprised.

 

[Jacob]

....
Mortice chisels fit in many of the most popular jigs, and it also doesn't need a rounded bevel.
....

I doubt a mortice chisel would fit in any of the popular jigs and yes they do need rounded bevels which you would know if you had ever used one. You can work them without a rounded bevel but it's better with. Rather like a claw hammer - a straight one would pull nails but with difficulty compared to the normal curved one. It gives the "moving fulcrum" effect of progressive leverage.

 

[D_W]

jacob, this is a dopey comment. The bulk of mortises cut in cabinet work are done with firmers or sash mortisers. I literally commented on the rounded top of oval bolstered chisels a week or two ago and the need for mortise depth for this to work.

As for regular mortising (not deep), rounding the bevel isn't correct - the mortise is cut riding a bevel if the bevel is down. The bevel is ridden to cut the wood on an angle (easier cut) and to rotate at the bottom of the stroke to break wood out.

This is the point of the rounding on the back of an oval bolstered chisel, but it doesn't work until the chisel is at least an inch deep (higher than that and the roundover tears up the edge of a mortise).

As far as your work vs mine, I've cut about 200 mortises in the last 3 years in actual work. Not sloppy work, more tidy work. You have no clue what paring chisels are for and I doubt you can show me any in your possession. I've used them on actual work and have actually made them, too. I have trouble taking seriously someone who thinks they're speaking with authority when they talk about how fast a scrub plane works in rough work and then admits that they don't use one much but rather use power tools.

You talk about hand tool work like someone born in 1950 who chips (not planes) wood off of barn beams and could stand to learn a lot from people who actually used them well.

(I read through nicholson after someone pointed me to it after I learned to both use the tools and make them, not before. You'd learn a whole lot from it, but it wouldn't fit in your bandwidth).

 

[AESamuel]

I doubt a mortice chisel would fit in any of the popular jigs and yes they do need rounded bevels which you would know if you had ever used one. You can work them without a rounded bevel but it's better with. Rather like a claw hammer - a straight one would pull nails but with difficulty compared to the normal curved one. It gives the "moving fulcrum" effect of progressive leverage.

I do use mortice chisels. You doubt they would fit in a guide? Maybe you would know they do if you had ever used one... (See how impudent that sounds now, Jacob?)

 

[D_W]

I've never put one in a guide, but keep 2 or 3 eclipse copies in case I run into a beginner (they're cheap enough to give them away). I can't think of anything that would keep any of my mortise chisels from working in an eclipse style guide.

I struggle to think of any reason (seeing jacob's reasoning and what he's posted in the past) why Jacob is so confident in his answers.

 

[AESamuel]

I've never put one in a guide, but keep 2 or 3 eclipse copies in case I run into a beginner (they're cheap enough to give them away). I can't think of anything that would keep any of my mortise chisels from working in an eclipse style guide.

I struggle to think of any reason (seeing jacob's reasoning and what he's posted in the past) why Jacob is so confident in his answers.

He also accuses you of "fantasy woodwork" despite having the time for over 17,000 posts on this forum?!

 

[D_W]

So all this meticulous sharpening stuff is just for fantasy woodwork? Not entirely surprised.

I'll have a fresh tool faster than you do, sharper and it will hold up better. I have no idea what you think is so grand about your sloppy upkeep.

re: the parers. I doubt you've used them in actual work, but I have. I can't think of anything save perhaps cleaning the bottom of deep through dovetails where I've used the length of one. I asked the former toolmaker from Colonial Williamsburg what the real need for them was as I struggled to find something I couldn't do better with another tool or as well. I still use them, just because I have them - but if I have to walk to pick them up, then I don't usually bother.

The retired toolmaker from Williamsburg has credibility. You don't. You splinter doorways. Give us a break.

 

[Jacob]

.....

I struggle to think of any reason (seeing jacob's reasoning and what he's posted in the past) why Jacob is so confident in his answers.

On the subject of hand cut mortices - I've cut hundreds, if not thousands. I didn't have a mortice machine for several years at first, making sash windows and panel doors
On the subject of sharpening - I've been at it for for a long time and have been through the options.
Simple really.
I see you haven't found out what paring chisels are for yet.
Time for the ignore button again! Cheerio!

 

[D_W]

He also accuses you of "fantasy woodwork" despite having over 17,000 posts on this forum?!

There's been a fair amount of work shown in my posts, too, though I'll admit I don't make as many posts per bit of shown work.

 

[D_W]

On the subject of hand cut mortices - I've cut hundreds, if not thousands. I didn't have a mortice machine for several years at first, making sash windows and panel doors
On the subject of sharpening - I've been at it for for a long time and have been through the options.
Simple really.

I have cut hundreds of mortises as an amateur. I have no idea how someone who weighs in as a pro would contend they have some credibility if they've "maybe" cut thousands. I professional who actually used hand tools as a main method would cut what you're saying in a year.

The tools you've shown sharpened would've resulted in expulsion from a shop 200 years ago...well, maybe not a shop making fence posts.

 

[AESamuel]

There's been a fair amount of work shown in my posts, too, though I'll admit I don't make as many posts per bit of shown work.

I meant he himself can't have the time for woodworking with all the time he spends on the forums!

 

[D_W]

I meant he himself can't have the time for woodworking with all the time he spends on the forums!

I definitely gathered that, too! But found humor in the balance of that and work shown. I've seen test joints and wood with grand canyon cracks in it and some window painting (which is quite useful, but not very useful talking about mortises).

The suggestion that delicate paring chisels were used on doors (presumably for site work) is humorous. I think I've got about 50 paring chisels and patternmaker's gouges, and not a single one of them has a fleck of paint).

Doors. hah!

 

[Jacob]

Rounded bevel on mortice chisel.
There are curved "lock mortice" chisels which are not very common, though extremely useful for cleaning out the corners of blind mortices and for levelling the bottoms - typically for fitting mortice locks.
The reason they are uncommon is that the function is easily replicated with a normal OBM style chisel with a pronounced round bevel. Not quite as neat for levelling the bottom but still quicker.
Rounded bevels for blind mortices. It's that simple.
Also makes sharpening simpler - it's difficult to get a flat bevel when freehand grinding/honing but there is no particular advantage in flat bevels.
Hence most freehand sharpened chisels/plane blades are about 30º at the edge but tend to have rounded bevels by default. It's easier and quicker, mainly because you can put more effort into it in a relaxed sort of way.
Cue "noises from the rabbit hole"

 

[D_W]

we would never cut the bevel on a mortise chisel entirely curved.

Nobody here is talking about lock mortise chisels - nice try to shift to something nobody is referring to.

The top shoulder of tall cross section chisels is rounded to rotate in deep mortises, and the tip may be rounded on deep mortising chisels.

For the rest, the most efficient setup is a flat bevel at one angle (not something I even typically use). If I was on a forum talking about mortises I cut by hand 40 years ago, maybe I would be confused about this or lacking interest in understanding the differences in function, but I've tried all of these things in multiples in the last 10 years.

You've probably posted more posts than me. I'll give you that. You understand the tools, design and why they're set up less well than I do. That may be tough for you to grasp - you call what I suggested (that's better, easier, faster) "rabbit hole". Call it what you want.

I'm casting no aspersions on the fact that you had to use a lot of power tools to do things in a way that's economically feasible (sash work, etc), but nobody here is asking how to use power tools. It's irrelevant, as is your confirmation bias.