Best selling car 2023

[Vulcan]

This could be the big game changer for car production. Several companies are saying they will be selling EV’s for £20K in a couple of years.

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/10/11...-gigapresses-from-casting-machine-maker-idra/

 

[MikeJhn]

Meanwhile the Electricity producers are sitting back and laughing at all of us, while the Governments push us more and more to using electricity, our infrastructure is old and will not be able to cope without massive investment, so I suppose it's self sustaining.

 

[John Brown]

Meanwhile the Electricity producers are sitting back and laughing at all of us, while the Governments push us more and more to using electricity, our infrastructure is old and will not be able to cope without massive investment, so I suppose it's self sustaining.

Why is electricity so expensive? I can understand why gas prices went up, because of Mr Putin, and other reasons, but we don't import that much electricity, and roughly half(?) of our electricity generation is wind+solar+nuclear. So why is electricity still three or four times the price of gas? Seems a bit strange, when we are being encouraged to install heat pumps and buy EVs.
And yet it seems that It Octopus made big losses in the last couple of years.

 

[Ozi]

Why is electricity so expensive? I can understand why gas prices went up, because of Mr Putin, and other reasons, but we don't import that much electricity, and roughly half(?) of our electricity generation is wind+solar+nuclear. So why is electricity still three or four times the price of gas? Seems a bit strange, when we are being encouraged to install heat pumps and buy EVs.
And yet it seems that It Octopus made big losses in the last couple of years.

It might be because we sold off all our nationalized power generation, that's like the government selling you your own car for 80% of what it's worth to give you a tax cut but we fall for it again and again thinking what a profit I've made on the shares they sold me. Now most is owned by foreign pension funds and the profits won't be upgrading our infrastructure - think next time there is a tax cutting budget just before an election.

They also tie the price of electricity to the price of gas?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

And yet it seems that It Octopus made big losses in the last couple of years.

Octopus (2015) apparently has never made a profit. The bosses must pay themselves well or they'd have got out of the business.

 

[Sideways]

We can't all walk to work (yet ?), have a windmill or a private wood to feed a log burner, so changing to cleaner and more sustainable forms of energy means a massive shift to electricity + hydrogen or whatever.
There's generation, storage, the electricity national grid and local distribution which need to roughly triple in size and the gas people are looking into piping hydrogen to industrial users at least.
This investment will cost a ton of money and take decades. Just like building the electricity, gas and water distribution, telecoms and road networks did in the first place. And then it needs to be maintained.
Building all the infrastructure for petroleum extraction, processing, LPG fleets, oil and gas pipelines, filling stations, and petrol tankers piggy backing on the road network all cost a mint too.
In the grand scheme of things, I think our society got used to energy from fossil fuels being relatively cheap and we are wasteful with it. Changing to sustainable energy will cost all of us, through our taxes, companies having to invest in changes and having less to pay out to shareholders, through higher gas and electricity prices, through the price we'll pay for EVs, heat pumps, hydrogen boilers, you name it.

It's just how it is ...

 

[selectortone]

I think our society got used to energy from fossil fuels being relatively cheap and we are wasteful with it

Absolutely. I remember growing up in the 50s and early 60s how my Mum and Dad insisted on switching off all lights in the house except the rooms we were in, minimum use of electric fires etc. No central heating of course. The relatively young family over the road from me seem to have every light in the house on all evening and I'm sure the heating is cranked up too - despite rising energy prices.

 

[John Brown]

Absolutely. I remember growing up in the 50s and early 60s how my Mum and Dad insisted on switching off all lights in the house except the rooms we were in, minimum use of electric fires etc. No central heating of course. The relatively young family over the road from me seem to have every light in the house on all evening and I'm sure the heating is cranked up too - despite rising energy prices.

Well lights are less of an issue these days, with LED lighting, and "sure" as in not sure, but you suspect it to be the case.

 

[Vulcan]

This just popped up on my home page. Googling it, price is expected to be $14,500 to $21,800.

 

[RogerS]

.....

It's just how it is ...

This is a very sobering article from a Professor Michael Kelly.

https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2019/11/Kelly-1.pdf
And he has continued to research the reality around NetZero....



And a more recent article (might be behind a paywall)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/11/green-energy-net-zero-biden-command-economy-impossible/

 

[worn thumbs]

I don't suppose our political classes will object to a command economy.I haven't yet encountered a specimen of the class who didn't crave power.The problem we have is that we don't produce enough of the electrical type and we have too much of the political type in the hands of some fairly dozy people with very little understanding of practical matters.

 

[Jester129]

How sobering was that? really don't know what else to say.

 

[MF1000]

Worn Thumbs, I read a while ago that Audi are concentrating on ICE cars in Germany and will be having their EV’s made in China. I think VW are doing the same.

How much wood in a Tesla Model Y? I would say quite a lot judging by the one I saw in a car park recently. And of course there’s still room to put some shopping in the “Frunk”.

I’ve never liked the look of Tesla’s but the new Model 3 looks ok if you like that sort of thing.

I was in a Tesla during a trip to Holland earlier this year - the wood trim in a Tesla looked like the ‘wood’ fitted to Austin Montego Van den Plas models in the early 80’s

 

[Sideways]

This is a very sobering article from a Professor Michael Kelly.

https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2019/11/Kelly-1.pdf

That is a brilliant read. Thanks for posting and lots to consider.

It could be read as a call to stop wasting effort on renewables.
It could be read as a signpost to an inevitable future of megacities with low birthrate, fuelled by nuclear and remaining fossil power stations, a rural agricultural hinterland and (not addressed by Prof. Kelly but we all watch Attenborough) depleted biodiversity.

Lots to think about and (hopefully) better that society is talking about it than just sleepwalking into it.

 

[Sideways]

I was in a Tesla during a trip to Holland earlier this year - the wood trim in a Tesla looked like the ‘wood’ fitted to Austin Montego Van den Plas models in the early 80’s

Have you seen the "burr elm" trim all through an Emirates A380 ?

 

[Rhossydd]

That is a brilliant read. Thanks for posting and lots to consider.

Make sure you take in and understand a bit about the organisation putting this out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Global_Warming_Policy_Foundation

 

[Vulcan]

Many of those that dislike the concept of electric vehicles seem to be under the impression that their polar opposites simply or perhaps solely see them as a panacea for global warming etc. I’m personally more concerned about the reduction in local air pollution that EV’s can provide.

 

[Richard_C]

Most of my journeys are short and well within the range of an inexpensive pre owned EV. About 1/5 of my journeys, and the majority of my annual mileage, are ill suited to EVs with the current infrastructure limitations. If the cost of personal transport was skewed towards use cost rather than ownership cost (insure and tax the driver, MOT on elapsed miles not age, longer duration lease or purchase finance) I could own one of each and minimise the fumes I emit. I am past the point of needing a big flash car to demonstrate my adequacy as a human being, but that is important for lots of people and that will influence their choices.

I wouldn't buy a Tesla. They do over the air software updates, like most seem to now, and Elon Musk is bonkers enough to tell them all to stop and lock their doors on a whim. "aaaah, you are now all my prisoners" cakled the Sauron of the motorways "no white wizard can save you now..."

If you are handing over power, hand it over to someone vaguely responsible.

 

[Ozi]

This is a very sobering article from a Professor Michael Kelly.

https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2019/11/Kelly-1.pdf
And he has continued to research the reality around NetZero....



And a more recent article (might be behind a paywall)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/11/green-energy-net-zero-biden-command-economy-impossible/

A very intelligent man who makes some very interesting points. As others have pointed out far from unbiased, he does seem to equate the increase in power generation with rising living standards and I cannot disagree, however the examples of the moon landings (successful therefore positive), trying to eradicate cancer (unsuccessful therefore negative) are just ridiculous. How much of the reduction in child mortality is due to cancer research etc. Much of which could not be carried out without the higher living standards obtained via cheap power, to separate or equate the two is ludicrous.

His power generated per Kg equations do betray his intent, let me know the next time you see a steam turbine sitting on a plinth in a field or, except that the weight (if that's your preferred measure) of the power station and all the infrastructure needed to produce both types of turbine should be taken into account, it's called cradle to grave analysis, do it properly or not at all.

Field area - there is a lot of farming going on under wind turbines.

Contested science, there are people who also contest the fact that the moon landings happened or that the earth is approximately spherical

I didn't know that aluminum and glass fiber require more processing than nuclear fuel either.

I did think that hydro was a renewable though - and there is a lot of concrete in a dam, surprised he didn't take that tack.

His point that the plinths under turbines have to be removed after use puzzles me, they are designed to outlast the masts which outlast blades and to be reused. It's the same as saying when your tires wear out scrap the car and build a new garage.

He is unfortunately correct about the magnitude of the task and the Chinese coal power stations. Also the need to lift people out of poverty

He is a very cleaver man and knows exactly what he is doing.


35 years ago it was know that we could not run the national grid with more than 10% renewable power and maintain a stable voltage, it was a fact, correct at that time the CEGB proved it. Then a whole lot of engineers got involved, many from the CEGB

That's called progress.

Gluing yourself to a road will not make it happen by 2025, (insert name of preferred deity) help us if we tried.
Saying it's not necessary, we can't do it, lets just keep making money at all costs is not the way forward. Even if he was correct do we just burn coal, oil and gas till they run out?

Better to do the best we can and hope.

 

[Vulcan]

I watched a YouTube video some time ago. In it they said that any advanced civilisation would get 99% of its energy needs from its local star. Using this metric we seem to be a long way off from being anywhere near advanced.

Of course it doesn’t help when a well known American talking head (actually not well known to me, I’ve never heard of him) says things like “if you covered the entire US with solar panels it would only provide 50% of the electricity required” The truth is apparently slightly different, it was posited that the true figure is nearer 0.1% of land mass with old style panels to as little as 0.05% with the latest type of solar panels - and they are still improving them?