Bench Top with clamps/pegs?

[BenCviolin]

A simple thru cut bench stop like that one above is very useful, and if done well is hard to beat.
The flush mounted aluminium spring stops look ideal but to fit them well takes ages.
Record vice with big chops is hard to beat, as is a German cabinet maker's bench
with an end vice. Then there's the patternmaker's vices, the small ball joint ones,
the mechanics vice....I use em all for different things.

 

[Jacob]

I only used a record vice for years, until an engineer friend made me a couple of hold downs as a gift and i decided to try them.
Since then I've found that i use both the vice and hold down/wedges/pegs etc equally.
Different jobs sometimes require different holding techniques. There's no right or wrong way.

- the centre of effort has to be in line with the stop i.e. you have to aim your plane at the stop, not to the side of it. This may mean moving your workpiece a touch, to line up your next cut with the stop. Sounds fiddly but it becomes second nature.

Do you have to adapt your technique for planing wide boards? Do they end up overhanging the bench and getting in your way?

Might need a wider stop. Many ways of doing this; if you have just one stop you can lay a lath across the bench with one end against the stop and the far end clamped (or nailed etc). Or clamp a bit of board at the bench end, as a stop - wide enough for the clamp to be out of reach of the plane.
Or mount a board with laths nailed on as stops, and plane on top of the board.
If you don't already have in place a collection of dog holes, hold downs, end vices etc you name it, you'll probably find it's actually easier to do without them and just cobble something together ad hoc as necessary.
Hold downs look a good idea but you can't use them for planing (they get in the way) but if you are chopping vertically you don't need a hold down anyway. Or if you do use a hold down it has to be so tight it'll make a mark. I've got one but hardly ever find a use for it.

 

[ED65]

Hold downs look a good idea but you can't use them for planing (they get in the way)

When face planing a hold-down or holdfast would most commonly be used to clamp a stop in place (at both ends of a thin board spanning the bench), or if there's a fixed or rising stop one holdfast would hold a bird-mouth batten on the near back corner as shown here by Richard Maguire.

if you are chopping vertically you don't need a hold down anyway. Or if you do use a hold down it has to be so tight it'll make a mark.

Marking is a non-issue. You either line the 'jaw' with cork or leather or use an intermediate slip of wood, just as with a c-clamp or a traditional steel sash clamp.

 

[Jacob]

Yebbut you can do it quite well without hold-downs or a "bird-mouth batten". Keep it simple. Not sure what that photo is supposed to show. He has a stop at the end of the bench and doesn't need anything else.
The trouble with so many gadgets and crafty wheezes is that they so often look like "a good idea" but in fact aren't necessary and may even hold up the job.

 

[Dan j]

Yebbut you can do it quite well without hold-downs or a "bird-mouth batten". Keep it simple. Not sure what that photo is supposed to show. He has a stop at the end of the bench and doesn't need anything else.

This video kind of shows why you'd use a bird-mouth batten or some other holding method rather than just planing at a stop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNrof3cd1cA
You can see at about 3 minutes in what i meant about a wide board overhanging and getting in the way.
Suppose a wide stop is a solution.

Jacob, I have had this same argument/discussion with my Dad who I did my apprenticeship with.
He says pretty much exactly what you have said.

Guess sometimes you just have to agree to differ. :roll:

 

[Jacob]

How it works is - if you don't have a tail vice, a birdsmouth batten, a holdfast, etc, you magically find that you don't need them and the work is slightly easier. Often, not always.

 

[ED65]

Yebbut you can do it quite well without hold-downs or a "bird-mouth batten". Keep it simple. Not sure what that photo is supposed to show. He has a stop at the end of the bench and doesn't need anything else.

Perhaps you could explain how you face plane diagonally using just an end stop?

I plane regularly using just one stop across the work surface so I am already a big fan of working this way, but on thin or narrow boards in particular as soon as you need to work remotely on the diagonal you need something else as well. And a batten (held by a holdfast or any suitable clamp) is a very good something else for the purpose.

The trouble with so many gadgets and crafty wheezes is that they so often look like "a good idea" but in fact aren't necessary and may even hold up the job.

I'm fully in favour of the most efficient means to an end Jacob, so I am with you on the principle.

But with respect you're again missing the boat on how speedy and effective some of these 'gadgets and crafty wheezes' are. Perhaps it's because you don't use any of them that you don't realise how they work for experienced users but a holdfast for example takes (I think literally) two seconds to set. Even if I'm off by a factor of five that's hardly a time penalty worth noting.

 

[AndyT]

Maybe, as before, what's missing on this discussion is a bit of context.
If the work you are doing is domestic joinery, the work you need to hold will all be within the range of sizes for which your trad joiner's bench is ideal.

But if you mix in some furniture making, model making, musical instrument making, carving etc then the vice and benchstop may not be the whole answer.

It would soon get a bit boring if every post began "in a joinery context" or "when making an oud" or whatever, but it might clear up some of the apparent contradictions we get when one poster says he finds something useful and another poster (who is working on or thinking about something quite different) says it's not necessary.

 

[Jacob]

Yebbut you can do it quite well without hold-downs or a "bird-mouth batten". Keep it simple. Not sure what that photo is supposed to show. He has a stop at the end of the bench and doesn't need anything else.

Perhaps you could explain how you face plane diagonally using just an end stop? You can't.

I'd use a back stop too - usually a bit of lath pinned to the bench, or a board clamped on, or just two screws. There are many variations.

...e some of these 'gadgets and crafty wheezes' are. Perhaps it's because you don't use any of them that you don't realise how they work for experienced users but a holdfast for example takes (I think literally) two seconds to set. Even if I'm off by a factor of five that's hardly a time penalty worth noting.

I thought the same but I find a holdfast is inconvenient unless you have a huge number of alternative holes to drop it in. This excludes the Record screw type completely (each hole needs an insert) but the smith made single iron is more viable, but still gets in the way.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I put loads of holes in mine and spaced some so I could bolt my drill stand and morticer through them if needed. I don't think there's an inch of the front of the top a holdfast can't reach. I lined up some on the back so I could put two stops well apart and square to the front.

 

[bugbear]

... but if you are chopping vertically you don't need a hold down anyway.

This is self-evidently only true for large workpieces - so probably true for architectural joinery,
but certainly not true for finer work. The friction of the chisel on the mortice
sides can pick small workpieces up in a most annoying fashions, so they need holding.

Truly large workpieces don't need holding at all - timber framers don't use workbenches.

Context is all, as Andy keeps trying to point out.

BugBear

 

[BenCviolin]

These bench stop inserts look great and work quite well but they take ages to fit properly.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/morticed-bench-stop-340133

 

[Jacob]

... but if you are chopping vertically you don't need a hold down anyway./quote]

This is self-evidently only true for large workpieces - so probably true for architectural joinery,
but certainly not true for finer work.....

Finer work fine. Better in fact without holding, as long as it is rectangular, you have a clean flat bench top (or board on top of bench) and the chopping is vertical

 

[DTR]

These bench stop inserts look great and work quite well but they take ages to fit properly.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/morticed-bench-stop-340133

I had one of these but in practice I found it a pain to use. Relatively speaking, it takes ages to wind it up or down, if compared to a traditional wooden stop. Also the cavity below the toothed part would will fill with shavings and dust, stopping the toothed part from winding all the way back in.

 

[MusicMan]

+1 for DTR's comments. I had one on an earlier bench but did not fit one on the next, for the same reasons. I now use 19mm holes, Veritas dogs and Workshop Heaven holdfasts and fine them all much superior and more flexible.

Keith

 

[mathias]

Have a look at this video, in which Roy Underhill demonstrates a selection of clamping options which could be useful.

http://video.unctv.org/video/2365326358/

...........

(Edited to correct link.)

In the video Roy removes the moving part of the vice by pulling it out easily. Are all (Record/Woden/Parkinson) vices like this?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If you take the retaining pin out of the end of the screw. I replaced mine with a cotter pin so that if I wish to clean the thread and slides up properly I just remove the pin and pull it out as he did.

 

[OM99]

This might be of interest, found it by mistake but there is no bench vise and he mostly uses holdfast.

some very clever way to hold down the stock for various tasks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvhn-PAfEW4

Olivier

 

[Bm101]

You guys have probably seen the idea before, but I saw one fella somewhere using scraps of wood with a 20mm hole in as semi permanent collars for his holdfasts. Idea being you cinch it up to the top and you're never grabbing for a scrap of wood to stop the holdfast marking your work, its already there but you can move out the way if needed. Suppose you could add a birds mouth to the end of it as well for holding/planing when needed and just clamp the holdfast to the bench to keep it out the way.

 

[DiscoStu]

My bench is currently 2 x 18mm MDF boards, however I'm going down the MFT style slab route so I can use a lot more clamping options as well as my Parf Dogs.

http://www.multifunctionslab.com/