you know what - can i just ask everyone to drop this thread now please. There is clearly a lot of disagreement here and it's clear I am not going to see eye to eye with some of the people who have commented. Ultimately we all enjoy the same thing just in different ways.
Ashley Isle's Chisels - So Dissapointed
- Thread starter Petey83
- Start date
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Paddy Roxburgh
Established Member
Petey83":329lv4n6 said:
Sorry Petey, didn't mean to obsess about the shoes, it's just the dock is a rather hostile environment. I get through rigger boots at an alarming rate. I live right by NLS in Waltham Cross, my work is at Enfield Dock right by Enfield Lock.
Paddy
So is the black line ( that looks like it's been honed) a shadow ? Or did Ai supply it ground and honed ? I don't recall any of mine being supplied sharpened, that's all.Petey83":cu82i9ne said:
Coley
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Paddy Roxburgh":2gtubttl said:
I am Goffs Oak - I may take you up on part of your offer - would be good to have someone show me how to grind as I still need to learn to put heavy camber on plane blades and re-grind chisels at some point.
Paddy Roxburgh
Established Member
Feel free to call in, I'm usually there every day except Saturday and Thursday afternoon. I do my tool grinding on a linisher (sorby pro edge). We have a dry grinder as well but the wheel is always got a groove in it from grinding tips from the tig welder.
Paddy
Paddy
.Petey83":3dc6ojz9 said:
I hear you on the shoes. Same reason I wear Allen Edmonds shoes. My go-to here (Hanover shoes) used to import shoes from italy for several of their brands, but not special shoes, just shoes that would cost about a hundred pounds. they got greedy and started making all of those shoes in China and they were trash. Not only did they only last 6 months if you baby them, but they were falling apart and they never felt quality or comfortable to begin with.
I wouldn't bat an eye at 133 in chisels, it's money in suspense, but buying shoes that are several hundred dollars is a matter of principle - to pay a company who still does things the right way. In ten years, I have bought 4 pairs of shoes for every day use, and only one of those pairs is worn out. the other three have a lot of life yet, and four pairs of shoes probably becomes a 20 year allotment of monday to friday shoes for me. The shoes feel superb compared to cheap shoes - but superb in that they feel proper, the same way a decent car feels compared to an economy car.
Once you get grinding down, it will open up a whole world of tools to you. As I mentioned prior, if you go with a wheel, you just need coarse grit, a wheel dresser, and a reasonable touch. Spray a dot of water on the back of a chisel at the edge if you'd like, and when the water starts to dry, spray it again. For every unreasonable horror story about dry grinding, there are 100,000 quietly ground edges that are perfectly fine. And if you blue the tip of a blade, we're talking about grinding off a 16th of an inch or something, or maybe even more practical, just use the chisel anyway and see if it fails. If you just blue a corner or something, chances are, it won't make much of a difference in use.
Having read through the thread I wonder if this boils down to a question of innocence vs. experience.Paddy Roxburgh":1cfbpdie said:
The vast majority of people these days are consumers of mass produced goods. As such they are used to receiving cosmetic perfection while perhaps not being knowledgeable enough to judge functional quality. Some, in fact probably most, of the tools in my local DIY supermarket look quite attractive on the shelves but anybody with a little knowledge can see that one would not want most of them in one's workshop. At best many of them could be regarded as one-off disposables for use in emergency only. Incidentally, this is the sort of junk which gets so heavily berated in The Anarchist's Toolchest by Christopher Schwarz.
Anybody who knows the AI chisels knows that they are of high quality. However, it's clear that their average purchaser is someone who fully expects to have to take a tool home and give it the final touch to make it fully functional. I remember being shocked when I started woodworking about three years ago at the notion that the blade of even a high quality chisel or plane needed sharpening by me in order to get it in working order! As a well-conditioned consumer I was used to things working straight out of the tin, the fact that they were often not expected to work very long after coming out of the tin being something that you just lived with. The AI chisels, suitably tweaked by their owner, will last for many, many years once "out of the tin".
I spoke about this to an experienced woodworker and his view was that if the manufacturers of high quality tools were to remove all grinding marks, create perfect squareness and hone to working sharpness, the price of the tools would go up noticeably. So the price of the (high quality, lest we forget) AI chisels is the price you pay plus 10 minutes of your time bringing them into optimal working order. What would they cost if they arrived in optimal working order? There's clearly a market for tools which are perfect in all aspects and there's the market for the user who is knowledgeable enough and prepared to do the final tweak himself. AI appears to be in this latter segment.
So most people on here, being happy to give the final tweak, find Pete's observations to be questionable and for good reason. On the other hand, his disappointment was real as his (perhaps naive) expectations had not been met.
It's a perfect example of how a first time woodworker SHOULDN'T go about buying tools. Petey83's name seemed familiar so I looked back a few of his older posts. You'll notice he originally had some good ol marples chisels, before deciding to have some narex. These were shortly sold on to make way for some Ai chisels. These were then returned by his own choice to fund some lie Nielsens- he's still never ground a chisel before, despite being on his 4th set ! - I'm sorry, but that just seems madness !!!! I wore out two set of marples split proof chisels before deciding to treat myself to the Ai chisels.
I'm afraid it has to be said- you could buy a £500 chisel, but if you've no experience of using it, it's not gonna improve your woodworking one bit !
My advice- go back to basics. Buy cheap & cheerful tools and learn how they work. Instead of buying endless amounts of power tools (not cheap festool) stick with cheaper recognised brands (bosch, makita, dewalt etc) and work through and get past the niggles. The only way this ends...that I can see, is being majorly dissapointed with your hobby after spending 1000's but still not seeing the results you're expecting. It's just not necessary [WINKING FACE]
Once you get past the need to spend loads on the biggest brands, I reckon you'll start to appreciate your tools a bit more. Instead of being a great tool collector, you'll finally start seeing some wear and tear to what you've already got,maybe even pick up some new skills on the way
Coley
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
I'm afraid it has to be said- you could buy a £500 chisel, but if you've no experience of using it, it's not gonna improve your woodworking one bit !
My advice- go back to basics. Buy cheap & cheerful tools and learn how they work. Instead of buying endless amounts of power tools (not cheap festool) stick with cheaper recognised brands (bosch, makita, dewalt etc) and work through and get past the niggles. The only way this ends...that I can see, is being majorly dissapointed with your hobby after spending 1000's but still not seeing the results you're expecting. It's just not necessary [WINKING FACE]
Once you get past the need to spend loads on the biggest brands, I reckon you'll start to appreciate your tools a bit more. Instead of being a great tool collector, you'll finally start seeing some wear and tear to what you've already got,maybe even pick up some new skills on the way
Coley
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
jlawford
Established Member
ColeyS1":2exo7t1l said:It's a perfect example of how a first time woodworker SHOULDN'T go about buying tools. Petey83's name seemed familiar so I looked back a few of his older posts. You'll notice he originally had some good ol marples chisels, before deciding to have some narex. These were shortly sold on to make way for some Ai chisels. These were then returned by his own choice to fund some lie Nielsens- he's still never ground a chisel before, despite being on his 4th set ! - I'm sorry, but that just seems madness !!!! I wore out two set of marples split proof chisels before deciding to treat myself to the Ai chisels.
I'm afraid it has to be said- you could buy a £500 chisel, but if you've no experience of using it, it's not gonna improve your woodworking one bit !
My advice- go back to basics. Buy cheap & cheerful tools and learn how they work. Instead of buying endless amounts of power tools (not cheap festool) stick with cheaper recognised brands (bosch, makita, dewalt etc) and work through and get past the niggles. The only way this ends...that I can see, is being majorly dissapointed with your hobby after spending 1000's but still not seeing the results you're expecting. It's just not necessary [WINKING FACE]
Once you get past the need to spend loads on the biggest brands, I reckon you'll start to appreciate your tools a bit more. Instead of being a great tool collector, you'll finally start seeing some wear and tear to what you've already got,maybe even pick up some new skills on the way
Coley
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
Great post Coley. If I can make a comparison, I sell pro audio equipment in my day job, and lots of people claim one brand of speakers to be the best, yet there are hundreds of concerts going on every day with two dozen or more different brands, some sound great and some rubbish, irregardless of brand! It's the monkey driving the PA system that makes the sound good. Same thing with woodworking.
One other to add is that it's been useful to me and probably others, to follow one particular path and run with it. In my case I've read most of Paul Sellers' blog and watched most of his videos, and taken the tool a few technique advice on board with my own woodworking which had been about a year now. I watch plenty of other videos from other people, but it's not going to make me change brand of chisels or planes every other day!
Back to the sound system example, the businesses having the most success make their decisions, then run with them and just get on with it! And the flip-floppers who are always changing equipment are spending £'000's...
ColeyS1":1iyhldue said:It's a perfect example of how a first time woodworker SHOULDN'T go about buying tools. Petey83's name seemed familiar so I looked back a few of his older posts. You'll notice he originally had some good ol marples chisels, before deciding to have some narex. These were shortly sold on to make way for some Ai chisels. These were then returned by his own choice to fund some lie Nielsens- he's still never ground a chisel before, despite being on his 4th set ! - I'm sorry, but that just seems madness !!!! I wore out two set of marples split proof chisels before deciding to treat myself to the Ai chisels.
I'm afraid it has to be said- you could buy a £500 chisel, but if you've no experience of using it, it's not gonna improve your woodworking one bit !
My advice- go back to basics. Buy cheap & cheerful tools and learn how they work. Instead of buying endless amounts of power tools (not cheap festool) stick with cheaper recognised brands (bosch, makita, dewalt etc) and work through and get past the niggles. The only way this ends...that I can see, is being majorly dissapointed with your hobby after spending 1000's but still not seeing the results you're expecting. It's just not necessary [WINKING FACE]
Once you get past the need to spend loads on the biggest brands, I reckon you'll start to appreciate your tools a bit more. Instead of being a great tool collector, you'll finally start seeing some wear and tear to what you've already got,maybe even pick up some new skills on the way
Coley
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
Every time I try and let this thread go......
To correct you on a few points and assumptions made.
I still own the marples and have used them a lot but mainly on household carpentry work / DIY as opposed to any furniture making. They have been sharpened many times and are now at the point where they need to be re-ground hence why I started looking into and subsequently bought a bench grinder a couple of weeks ago.... well that and the desire to get a heavy canber on my jack plane iron now.
The Narex chisels have been with me for a couple of years so hardly bought and just sold on a few months later as you've implied. I've not really used them much as aside from not doing a lot of making (more building work as mentioned) i actually don't find they suit my hand when I have tried to do finer work.
I will freely admit my strategy for tool buying is not great at times and I've certainly lost money on some things but that's the price I pay I guess for not being particylulrly near a really good hand tool shop or having a mentor local to me. At the end of the day the losses and mistakes are my cross to bear. What I've done now is plan ahead and think about the tools I may like in future and had a good look at them on the rare trips I get to the closest Axminster, this way I know what I am buying upfront now even if I can't afford it at the time of looking.
Everyone keeps going on about how quick and easy it is to grind a chisel square which to me begs the question why don't AI do this in the first place and if they did why is it said that this would cause a massive increase in price. Kinda contradictory really.....
To be very clear once and for all - I have not once said anything deliberately derogatory about AI as a company or their products, all I have done is state my disspintnent at what I received based on what I was expecting from my research on line including this forum. I had actually already tried the LN chisels and really liked them but I bought AI as I liked the idea of buying a British made product.
I indeed do not know how to grind a tool, this is something I have not needed to do with my mainly power tool work so far but it is something I aim to remedy this year as I do understand it's importance. That being said I am not about to start trying to learn it on a £133 gift. If anyone here would like to buy me an AI chisel to try and re grind then I will happily give you my pay pal details and post some pics of the results.
I am not disappointed with my hobby at all, to the contrary I am really happy with most of what I have now and even more happy that after 3 years of trying to do this as a hobby whist living in a flat with a tiny back yard I now have a double garage that is being slowly converted into a workshop which has made the idea of me even attempting to build the furniture for out new house even possible.
One thing that will never change is my penchant for nice things including tools - I own a fair amount of Festool gear which many people see as over priced yet I find it well made and can say 100% it has improved my work
shed9
establiSHED member
I agree that an expensive tool will not instantly elevate skill set and will clearly not gain you retrospective experience however conversely a cheap tool will achieve the exact opposite.
Good tools will help, cheap tools will hinder. If good tools are in your reach go for it whatever your level or stage in your chosen craft.
Good tools will help, cheap tools will hinder. If good tools are in your reach go for it whatever your level or stage in your chosen craft.
thetyreman
Established Member
I don't agree that cheap tools will hinder, sharpening is a skill that you have to master, fettling a plane is a skill you have to master, and it's not rocket science, it's very easy and very simple, 'cheap' tools does not mean low quality steel, with old second hand tools.
shed9
establiSHED member
thetyreman":10dr91hy said:
Cheap tools are hit and miss; quality, production runs and materials are not consistent. You can still achieve sharpening and fettling skills with better tools. I agree cheap tools do not always equate to low quality, but when someone is first starting out why put them in that minefield when more consistent options are available to them?
If people want to use their money to buy the best they can afford, I really don't have a valid argument to persuade them to do otherwise.
How about, I've spent £55 on a chisel, it needs grinding but I'm scared I'll wreck it if I do ? Instead i'll carry on using it till its blunt, then not use it at all cause I don't have the experience/confidence to grind it yet. Then it becomes just downright unsafe, wood doesn't cut cleanly, best case scenario he buys some blue spruce ones that remain sharp for 10-15 honings.
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Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
ColeyS1":3p3zl4dg said:
Ok so in my last post I stated that I have the intent to learn to grind and have actually bought a bench grinder and plan to use the cruddy Irwin marples to learn how to do it. I have previously stated that since I made the decision to learn more hand tool skills I have become more aware of the need to re grind tools. I have never stated that I won't re-grind the LNs when the time comes but that time won't be on the day I buy them like it was with the AIs (if I wanted them square which is something I'm entitled to want). All I have said is I was not prepared to learn to re grind on a brand new £133 gift but have offered you and anyone else the option of buying an AI chisel for me to use to learn on. So far no one has offered to buy me one so I assume it's ok for me to risk my money or just accept getting moaned at when I chose not to but no one else wants to risk their money...
Corneel
Established Member
Petey83":2t62rrro said:
I don't know how easy it is to grind the edge "exactly" square, because I never do. Close enough is good enough, and I guess that was what the grinder at AI was thinking too. And he had to do it quick, because there isn't much time in a 20 pound chisel.
This is how I go about it. I clean up the stone first with a dressing tool. Then I set the toolrest at 90 degrees to the stone and grind the very front of the edge. Making it super blunt in fact! I happen to have a pretty wide wheel at the left hand so it is easy to make a straight grind. I check of course, either by eye, or if I want it to be exact, I'd take a small machinists square. Then I go over to my coarse wheel on the right, dress the wheel, set the tool rest at the proper bevel angle and start to reestablish the bevel, slowly without too much force and colling the steel from time to time. I won't continue all the way to a sharp edge, the last little bit is done while honing on the bench stone.
This procedure helps to avoid overheating. Making it square is a separate activity from making it sharp(ish) again. When you want to do all the squaring work while grinding the bevel to the desired angle, you will have a much harder time to make and keep it square and you will probably overheat the edge where it is thinnest.
BTW, this is a good way to camber your jackplane iron too. First grind in the profile with the tool pointing at 90 degrees straight into the wheel. Then reestablish the bevel, of course looking where you need to remove more or less steel.
Paddy Roxburgh
Established Member
Totally agree with Corneel, all profiling work should be done at 90 degrees, as should heavy stock removal to get rid of a bad chip, then the bevel ground at the desired angle until it is close to the edge. This prevents blueing the steel. If you sharpen without a jig, as I do, grinding is only necessary if you have a bad chip or you wish to change the profile (e.g. put a camber on a plane iron). However that's a whole other debate that I don't want to get into.
Paddy
Paddy
