Ashley Isle's Chisels - So Dissapointed

[lurker]

Aw! come on guys!
How can you judge someone's whole character by the shoes he buys?
This just smacks of envy!

Where is there a "rule" that filthy rich Petey :mrgreen: is not allowed to be a woodworker?

 

[Corneel]

Probably! I allready deplore that I mixed into this discussion.

Whatever Petey, I hope you'll be happy with the LN chisels.

 

[lurker]

I hope you'll be happy with the LN chisels.

I imagine 4 pages of bile has put the mockers on that too :roll:

 

[D_W]

Aw! come on guys!
How can you judge someone's whole character by the shoes he buys?
This just smacks of envy!

Where is there a "rule" that filthy rich Petey :mrgreen: is not allowed to be a woodworker?

Well, I made the shoe snide, but I'm wearing Allen Edmonds shoes, so I can't say much other than if you wear the well-made shoes *and* you can grind the bevel on your chisels and use them with good effect, then great.

We're allowed to have nice shoes. When we cross over into the territory of being unreasonably demanding and lacking analysis, then maybe we are better of taking their expensive shoes to lessons at the local tennis club where the staff are used to dealing with that kind of behavior. (or going to a LN event where we can learn to spend 10 minutes sharpening a chisel or 20 grinding one by hand, and then learn how we can spend time each month trying to keep our tools pretty).

The folks at AI who are making something awfully good for a reasonable price don't really need the trouble.

 

[pcb1962]

I'd say that someone who buys $600 shoes and then is concerned about grinding a bevel square on a $25 chisel - though it could be used perfectly well as it is - is probably someone who should not be a woodworker.

This is getting far too personal

 

[iNewbie]

He probably could. But its a new tool and he shouldn't have too. He has bought what people regard as a quality tool and in this day and age you'd think they could get that right from the factory if they're grinding them, themselves!!!!! Especially these days in the land of t'web you'll get threads like these started cuz a basic grind seems beyond you...

Personally if I were he I'd have contacted Iles of my disappointment and had them pick-up fix, and return the item than buy the LN's - but he aint me.

I don't agree. For one thing, I don't really regard 1 1/2 degrees as much out of square on a chisel end, and it's the sort of thing that will correct itself in a couple of honings anyway. I'm willing to bet that most people's smaller chisels are 'out of square' by that or more - but still work perfectly adequately!

There are things to buy a good chisel for; balance in the hand, quality of steel, fineness of lands on a bevel-edged chisel and so on. Some you can assess by looking at or holding a chisel in the shop, some you can't really judge until you've used a chisel for some time. Rejecting a chisel because of something any half-competent woodworker will adjust for themselves almost without thinking about it seems rather harsh on a manufacturer who has done all the hard bits a woodworker, even a very good one, can't do - forging to shape, heat treating, grinding in fine lands, minutely hollowing the flat side.

Just a note for those indignant at the slight out-of-squareness of this example; NEVER buy a vintage chisel. The chances of finding anything that is even remotely as near to a good working end as that shown in the OP's photo are very remote!

You don't have to agree. Your assertion of what others should be looking for for is all well and good. For him its a square end... Doesn't matter to me, but it matters to him and he's entitled to his opinion as its his money being spent.

Yeah, any half-compettent woodworker should be able to do it. Shame his don't appear to have arrived like it when the manufacturer has the equipment to do it 'emselves! :mrgreen:

 

[ColeyS1]

Aw! come on guys!
How can you judge someone's whole character by the shoes he buys?
This just smacks of envy!

More his buying and selling history does ! Seems to buy stuff, use once or twice, then sell on. - No harm doing that whatsoever. Just seems like he was looking for any reason to ditch the Ai and splash out on some lie Nielsens. No doubt these will probably be in the for sale section in a few months once he realises blue spruce chisels might be better [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH AND COLD SWEAT]
Buying the most expensive tool, isn't the answer to improving woodworking. The key is to get as much use out of the tools you currently have as you can. An expensive chisel isn't the solution to not being able to grind.
He'd be better of getting a decent grinder and sharpening often, instead of spending £100's and being too afraid to use them !
I don't know how I'm gonna dispose of my faulty out of square chisels. My take them to the tip and see if they'll have them
Coley

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[D_W]

I'd say that someone who buys $600 shoes and then is concerned about grinding a bevel square on a $25 chisel - though it could be used perfectly well as it is - is probably someone who should not be a woodworker.

This is getting far too personal

I'm reminded of something that Charlie Stanford said to me years ago. Something golf related came up. I don't know if I'd bought new clubs or something, but Charlie said that he figured I'd buy ten sets of clubs and quit golf. That wasn't accurate, and it sure didn't make a dent - we're grown men and women here.

Besides, if I weren't American (where the courteous thing to do for the shoe trade is buy Allen Edmonds), maybe I'd have the same shoes.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Aw! come on guys!
How can you judge someone's whole character by the shoes he buys?
This just smacks of envy!

Where is there a "rule" that filthy rich Petey :mrgreen: is not allowed to be a woodworker?

Just for the record, I own several pairs of Grensons, which were probably in the same sort of price bracket when I bought them years ago, so there's no envy on my part.

It was Petey who brought up the subject of shoes, perhaps suggesting that if you pay a lot you expect a lot. We were just pointing out that relative to some makes, AI's chisels don't cost that much. We were also trying to point out that the business end of a chisel is something a woodworker is expected to adjust to their own needs, and to sharpen when needed, including regrinding if necessary.

The original post had a rather critical tone about something most experienced woodworkers don't regard as any sort of problem, but had nothing good to say about the chisels to balance the criticism; perhaps some people felt that the makers were due some credit for the things they do get right. That's all.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

He probably could. But its a new tool and he shouldn't have too. He has bought what people regard as a quality tool and in this day and age you'd think they could get that right from the factory if they're grinding them, themselves!!!!! Especially these days in the land of t'web you'll get threads like these started cuz a basic grind seems beyond you...

Personally if I were he I'd have contacted Iles of my disappointment and had them pick-up fix, and return the item than buy the LN's - but he aint me.

I don't agree. For one thing, I don't really regard 1 1/2 degrees as much out of square on a chisel end, and it's the sort of thing that will correct itself in a couple of honings anyway. I'm willing to bet that most people's smaller chisels are 'out of square' by that or more - but still work perfectly adequately!

There are things to buy a good chisel for; balance in the hand, quality of steel, fineness of lands on a bevel-edged chisel and so on. Some you can assess by looking at or holding a chisel in the shop, some you can't really judge until you've used a chisel for some time. Rejecting a chisel because of something any half-competent woodworker will adjust for themselves almost without thinking about it seems rather harsh on a manufacturer who has done all the hard bits a woodworker, even a very good one, can't do - forging to shape, heat treating, grinding in fine lands, minutely hollowing the flat side.

Just a note for those indignant at the slight out-of-squareness of this example; NEVER buy a vintage chisel. The chances of finding anything that is even remotely as near to a good working end as that shown in the OP's photo are very remote!

You don't have to agree. Your assertion of what others should be looking for for is all well and good. For him its a square end... Doesn't matter to me, but it matters to him and he's entitled to his opinion as its his money being spent.

Yeah, any half-compettent woodworker should be able to do it. Shame his don't appear to have arrived like it when the manufacturer has the equipment to do it 'emselves! :mrgreen:

Problem is, he's using a public forum to denigrate a manufacturer over something that isn't really a serious fault. That's something that deserves a corrective post, I think - so I weighed in.

 

[shed9]

Not sure I understand the attitude to the OP on this one. He is perfectly entitled to expect product to be as described. Fair enough if the vendor advises the customer to expect slight differences in squareness but they don't. I appreciate there is possibly more to this than his comments today but taking it at face value, it is not warranted.

On that basis, I also don't see this as damaging to Ashley Iles either. Their customer base is a distributed mix of seasoned professionals, occasional hobbyists and everything in between. Not everyone who takes delivery of an out-of-square product is going to take it on the chin as an acceptable aspect of AI's place in the market comparative to the 'true' cost of production. AI have set their price, not the OP and it is their responsibility to compete with other vendors in terms of price and quality.
AI needs to be upfront about the potential of situations like this as clearly it's not just the OP's tools affected.

AI can learn from this and be a better manufacturer and supplier by using the comments from this thread. It certainly hasn't put me off as a potential customer, the only difference is I might speak to AI or a distributor prior to ordering which is no bad thing.

 

[D_W]

Still stunned by the idea that a manufacturer would have to advertise something as a possible "defect" when it can easily be removed by a user - who will have to work the very same part of the chisel as a matter of routine sharpening.

There is a duty of some courtesy on customers' part that has been lost as the level of aptitude of the customer has dropped, and as the current nonsense of "no questions asked returns" has created. The duty of the customer is to make a critical decision about whether or not they got their money's worth, not whether or not they got perfection at every price level.

I still feel sorry for the vendor and the manufacturer in this case. They've both done a good job.

 

[shed9]

Still stunned by the idea that a manufacturer would have to advertise something as a possible "defect" when it can easily be removed by a user - who will have to work the very same part of the chisel as a matter of routine sharpening.

Not a defect but a reality, so threads like this don't turn into the word defect being banded around in the first place.

As I said, AI has a mix of customers and not everyone appreciates the economies of hand made tools. Not the best situation but it is real none the less and they need to adapt to that aspect or risk losing those customers which again is real as proven by the OP.

 

[John15]

I've never spent more than £50 on a pair of shoes.

John

 

[MrTeroo]

Audi and volkswagen have lost a lot of market share here, but more volkswagen than audi.

I'd have traded some initial work on those cars if I could've avoided the very long list of problems each had starting not long after they were new.

I think we've strayed off topic OW :lol:
Don't get me wrong, I really like my Audi which is a highly specced A6 Avant quatro and the problems weren't major, just little niggles however my point was that in general cars are rarely fault free and neither are many other products.

Getting back to the chisels, I bet not a single one of mine is exactly square though I don't take a try square to them to check. That would be down to my sharpening skills or lack of but doesn't stop them slicing through wood effortlessly so I won't be changing anytime soon.

Bob

Not all cars, I haven't had the slightest problem with my new Bentley Continental GT Speed Convertible (hammer)

 

[iNewbie]

Problem is, he's using a public forum to denigrate a manufacturer over something that isn't really a serious fault. That's something that deserves a corrective post, I think - so I weighed in.[/color][/b]

Serious enough for the retailer to take them back and not tell the buyer to suck-it-up...

 

[D_W]

Still stunned by the idea that a manufacturer would have to advertise something as a possible "defect" when it can easily be removed by a user - who will have to work the very same part of the chisel as a matter of routine sharpening.

Not a defect but a reality, so threads like this don't turn into the word defect being banded around in the first place.

As I said, AI has a mix of customers and not everyone appreciates the economies of hand made tools. Not the best situation but it is real none the less and they need to adapt to that aspect or risk losing those customers which again is real as proven by the OP.

Everyone will lose customers with unreasonable expectations. I have a friend who bought 4 lie nielsen planes. He couldn't figure out how to sharpen them, and when I first started, he had a marginally sharpened block plane. He's the person who got me into planes - sent me along with David C.'s sharpening video a dozen or so years ago, I ordered a plane from LN and watched the video and sharpened it.

Then went back to him and showed him how to sharpen his planes using the information that he for some reason wasn't able to glean from the David C. video. A strange thing because that video has excruciating detail in it.

He then did both sides of the double iron set in the LN video, setting the bevel on the LN blade, which needed to be done after he had mangled it in his initial failed attempts. he did the same to the cap iron - 25 degrees, which caused the cap iron edge to get smashed up the first time he used it in hardwood (it's unhardened, took on nasty dents).

He sent the cap iron back to LN, they told him it should've been set to a steeper bevel, and he promptly stopped buying any more LN products. His two issues? One, he didn't like that there was no instruction on setting up the cap iron, and two, he was mad that he had to pay for the sharpening video in the first place.

You just can't do enough for some customers when you do something appropriate for a given price point. Even with LN, some people just aren't happy, and nobody does more to cater to customers than LN and LV. You can find peppered comments here and there from folks who weren't happy with their LV tools, and LV does just about everything except drive to their front door to correct problems.

I'd imagine that with a little public complaining, AI might focus more on squaring the bevels - it's learning for them just how incapable some of their customers are, but that's just reality when the customer base shifts to more people who do more magazine reading than woodworking. LN has been dealing with that crowd for some time - they cater to it. when the dust settles in 50 years, I'll bet there will be no other make where the average tool has been used less than an LN bench plane or chisel. There are gobs of years-old sets for sale used with no sign of use.

There was an article a while back where Leonard Lee said that customers call all the time talking about this or that being out a thou or two, even though they have no way to measure it. I don't recall, but it may have been introducing their expectation to start lapping the backs of everything they sell, which is an absolute beginner's delight. We won't find those chisels for $27 each, though. I'll gladly correct a bevel. Leonard basically said that it's easier just to give people what they want, even if (paraphrasing) they don't really know enough to know what they should get.

 

[shed9]

Everyone will lose customers with unreasonable expectations. I have a friend who bought 4 lie nielsen planes. He couldn't figure out how to sharpen them, and when I first started, he had a marginally sharpened block plane. He's the person who got me into planes - sent me along with David C.'s sharpening video a dozen or so years ago, I ordered a plane from LN and watched the video and sharpened it. ..........................

.....................There was an article a while back where Leonard Lee said that customers call all the time talking about this or that being out a thou or two, even though they have no way to measure it. I don't recall, but it may have been introducing their expectation to start lapping the backs of everything they sell, which is an absolute beginner's delight. We won't find those chisels for $27 each, though. I'll gladly correct a bevel. Leonard basically said that it's easier just to give people what they want, even if (paraphrasing) they don't really know enough to know what they should get.

I hear what you are saying D_W and agree with it, my point I suppose is that AI can deal with this aspect in a positive manner and retain some of those customers who may be unrealistic in what is essentially a usable affordable hand made tool. Some people expect a square edge delivered, they just need to point out on their site that this may not always be the case due to the hand grinding and that this will rectify itself after several sharpening processes. In essence it may not be square because a machine didn't do it.

British manufacturing really can't afford to be picky with customer base at this juncture especially with EU and US trade up for negotiation in the coming years.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Problem is, he's using a public forum to denigrate a manufacturer over something that isn't really a serious fault. That's something that deserves a corrective post, I think - so I weighed in.[/color][/b]

Serious enough for the retailer to take them back and not tell the buyer to suck-it-up...

.....which reflects great credit on Classic Hand Tools and their approach to customer complaints. As a bonus, their client has now spent an extra £80 with them, and will no doubt consider using their services again. (Disclaimer - I've used Classic Hand Tools several times, with very quick service and never had need to complain.) The customer exercised his right to return goods bought by mail order, and the vendor acted quite positively.

However, that doesn't alter the fact that the customer then left a rather negative post about the chisels on this public forum, for something that many of consider to be trivial, and within the woodworker's normal scope of activities to adjust to their taste. That's excessively harsh on Ashley Iles.

 

[MotamJoinery]

I recently purchased a set of AI chisels, I haven’t checked if they are square. I did notice that the width is slightly off on each chisel.

e.g. the 3mm is 2.7mm wide . Majority seem to be 0.2 - 0.5mm off the stated sizes. Would be interested to see what peoples view is on this, is it reasonable to accept the size differences for hand made chisels?