Arnold Laver - rip off pricing!?!

[Jelly]

So OP you paid about 800 pounds per cubic meter to them...
Roughcut - You didn't fared too good either at around 500

I swear if my business picks up I'm just going to Import the timber myself from Eastern europe or even poland which isn't that far and it costs around 100quid/cubic meter there for pine.
Where did I come up with the price? I'm from Latvia originally where I used to buy timber at around 80-100pounds/cubic meter price this summer.. Just 10 times cheaper than the damn fckers are charging here in UK for the same timber! And trust me the quality is soooo much better than here in UK, because they will take fresh logs for you if you want and saw them to the exact sizes you need!
Need it planed down? Sure no problem it was just extra 35euros per cubic meter of materials you need planed down... damn how I miss that

Have you tried contacting the importers directly. ArborForest Products can source packs of just about any combination of size, length and grade* of redwood or whitewood you need, so long as you're willing to wait for the next ship.

Prices will be simmilar to the prices paid by smaller independent merchants and larger joinery firms, I forget what the minimum order is...

MetsaWood and SCA are a bit more limited, in that they're mainly bringing in their own timber from Scandinavia rather than sourcing direct from the mill across russia & latvia... But nontheless if you use enough timber to justify buying multiple packs at a time, I'd be suprised if they didn't offer you better prices than a merchant branch would

With regards to importing yourself for commercial use, there is a fair bit of red tape, and ignoring or circumventing it could result in stiff fines... However if you're organised and good with record keeping it wouldn't be That difficult, However if clients are specifying PEFC/FSC certification and you're importing yourself that would be another step towards burecratic madness.

*Including Clears, at a price premium of course...

 

[Wizard9999]

I think you could of had the decency to keep it private to start with (you say you only just phoned them) to see if it could have been resolved or explained. You were also offered the chance to take it or leave it.

I phoned them to raise the issue before I posted about my experience, there was the opportunity to resolve this before anything was said online.

I really don't like the idea of naming and shaming anyone immediately the problem comes to light , every business has problems mis understandings, genuine **** ups etc etc. To post things on open forums can do irreparable damage.

In years gone by a business could rely on the fact that poor service, sharp practice, etc. would be contained to the affected customer and those who they spoke to directly. I believe the ability to share poor experiences widely on forums like this is a means by which businesses can be held to account for such practices. This is not a ****-up, if it were then that would have been recognised when I called their customer service team, they simply tried to explain or (depending on your view point) make excuses for the different pricing.

They may well have sold £5million pounds worth of timber this year to happy customers, and £5 worth to you, yet you are damaging their reputation probably more than the others are being positive. For example I had never even heard of Arnold Laver, now I know him as the guy who overcharges.

If the balance of good and bad experience is 1 million to 1 than whatever I say on this forum I am sure the overwhelming majority of customers will continue to shop there.

I guess we are just going to agree to disagree on this one.

Terry.

 

[Wizard9999]

I was unhappy enough to share my experience on forums for woodworkers and pasted this post at the bottom of the email.

Terry.

Mail and black come to mind.
Sorry mate but that's the way the statement reads.
Should have questioned the price at the till. They have the money now and you ain't likely to get it back.

Blackmail is defined as "the action, treated as a criminal offence, of demanding money from someone in return for not revealing compromising information which one has about them."

So if I had sent an email saying I would submit the post unless I got something in return I would agree with you. But what I actually told him was what I had alread said online, so I had no leverage any more had I been trying to get something in return for my silence. Also, I did not ask for anything other than an explanation of the rationale for the pricing policy.

So the statement highlighted may superficially read like blackmail, but in the wider context of what I have said it clearly isn't. But of course, it is your prerogative to interpret events as you wish.

Terry.

 

[sitefive]

Seems a little unfair to be able to name and shame, especially the title, when they are not in a position to defend.

by any chance are you working for them????
By the looks of it you do...
The guy clearly got ripped off, and you are defending them,whatever its for 5pounds or 5million he still deserves to raise his voice and share his experience

 

[doctor Bob]

No I don't work for them .......... I'd never heard of them till this thread. Just don't like immediate naming and shaming.

 

[RobinBHM]

Differential pricing is common in builders merchants.

Most merchants have discount structures set up for each trade customer, which means retail customers will usually be quoted the undiscounted price.

Even trade customers may not get their discount from each branch, which can be annoyinh.

The price needs to be agreed by a phone call before visiting the branch.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

Seems a little unfair to be able to name and shame, especially the title, when they are not in a position to defend.

Seems more unfair to me for a business to rip off its customers. I suppose it depends on whether you side with the individual customer who's been ripped off or the big business that's acted unethically.

 

[clk230]

As annoying as it is , no rip off has happened the OP was told the price and he paid the price if he thought it was to much then he shouldn't have purchased.

 

[doctor Bob]

Seems a little unfair to be able to name and shame, especially the title, when they are not in a position to defend.

Seems more unfair to me for a business to rip off its customers. I suppose it depends on whether you side with the individual customer who's been ripped off or the big business that's acted unethically.

I am not arguing about who is right and who is wrong, I'm saying in my following posts that the CEO should be allowed time to respond before being named on an open forum. He may well come back with a perfect explanation or he may not but give the fella a chance.

To be honest I thought naming and shaming was against the grain of most forums.
As an example would you lot post up such a thread title against one of the favoured forum suppliers (who has served punters perfectly well for years) if he overpriced one item, no you would wait for his response to see whether it was a mistake or if he was going to refund etc, or at least I hope you would. Then you may well post it up. I would call it common courtesy, especially given the costs in question (and yes I'm aware the little punter is as important as the big punter blah, blah, blah.... but I honestly doubt this will be his top priority).

 

[Jelly]

Differential pricing is common in builders merchants.

Most merchants have discount structures set up for each trade customer, which means retail customers will usually be quoted the undiscounted price.

Even trade customers may not get their discount from each branch, which can be annoyinh.

The price needs to be agreed by a phone call before visiting the branch.

This, so much this...

When I still lived in wales If I bought from the two local branches of Huws Grey, I paid cash and got charged punter price; If I bought at their Mill in Llangefni (which I used frequently to resaw large sections) I was known well enough to qualify for discount... The only way to standardise that would have been to pay on account which I had no desire to do, so i accepted the cash price differential between sites as part of doing business with them.

Similarly, I get good prices at my local Howarth Timber branch because I have a rapport with the site staff, I wouldn't expect the same if I wandered into one of their other branches halfway across the country.

 

[paulm]

With such a lot of fuss and bother and general angst over a few quid some retailers may be quite happy not to have some customers !

Buyer beware and all that, I would personally put it down to a learning experience and move on knowing I needed to be better prepared and researched before my next timber buying expedition.

Cheers, Paul

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I get different prices at my merchants according to whom I'm speaking, even when dealing with people I've known for thirty years +. I wouldn't let swmbo go there - she gets robbed. Recently they missed an item on my bill for about £7 - I didn't do anything about it (I was home before I noticed) because the week before they'd charged me £6 more than their on line price (for something I needed - I didn't check beforehand) ... for something they had in a SALE.
One point - I have friends in different trades, and they all say the same (in this area, anyway) you will not get the best prices in general if you cherry pick. They all say you'll get the best deal over a time if you pick your merchant, negotiate, and stick with them. There are always lines that are more expensive in one place than another - you just bite the bullet.

 

[HexusOdy]

Seems a little unfair to be able to name and shame, especially the title, when they are not in a position to defend.

Seems more unfair to me for a business to rip off its customers. I suppose it depends on whether you side with the individual customer who's been ripped off or the big business that's acted unethically.

I am not arguing about who is right and who is wrong, I'm saying in my following posts that the CEO should be allowed time to respond before being named on an open forum. He may well come back with a perfect explanation or he may not but give the fella a chance.

To be honest I thought naming and shaming was against the grain of most forums.
As an example would you lot post up such a thread title against one of the favoured forum suppliers (who has served punters perfectly well for years) if he overpriced one item, no you would wait for his response to see whether it was a mistake or if he was going to refund etc, or at least I hope you would. Then you may well post it up. I would call it common courtesy, especially given the costs in question (and yes I'm aware the little punter is as important as the big punter blah, blah, blah.... but I honestly doubt this will be his top priority).

I appreciate your point but I disagree. If anything the CEO made his argument first by making the decision to charge more in store than quoted online. Their reasoning is nonsensical seeing as anything you order from Lavers comes from the local depot anyway so there is zero difference in cost. If the CEO doesn't want his company to be named and shamed they shouldn't have shady business practices.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Personally this sort of thing makes me cross - what amounts to pricing by what they think they can 'extract' from the customer.

I get this with electrical wholesalers. Time was when you got charged the same as the next person for a small batch order over the counter, and they liked cash. I still usually get that in the plumber's merchants locally (or at least happy with debit card now). But with a certain large electrical chain, that's taken over most of the small outfits locally, you need an account, or you pay a really big mark-up.

The Americans have a really simple, and neat 'terms of trade' law: basically you have to offer the same terms to everyone. So you can discount to the big volume buyers, but you may be called on to prove you're not gouging people because of who they are, rather than how much they buy. It effectively eliminates 'trade' discount, but that's OK as people are happy to pay for skilled labour, and not for tradespeople making a big mark-up on materials. We should do the same here.

I really think the approach outlined earlier -- advertising one price and charging something very different on a dodgy pretext -- is borderline corrupt. It's certainly unethical.

And that sort of thing encourages corruption, too: if discounts are arbitrary in merchants, bribes get paid and so on. We all know the building trades are full of it,. and there's no reason why they should be.

And it even extends to qualifications, and even to safety qualifications, too. Don't get me started on the really carp electrical installations I've come across, done by people writing their own part-P certificates. They've done the course, they have a license to lazily earn a nice fat income doing really poor (and sometimes dangerous) work and charging a lot for it.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I know a plumber/heating fitter who did roaring trade with the guys in a motor factors. They knew what he did, so if they wanted a boiler or maybe a bathroom suite he would tell them he could get 25% off then fetch it having got 50% off list and having paid cash so it didn't touch his books. They were delighted to get the 25% and paid up front, he pocketed 25% and got mega discounts of his motoring costs because he was doing them a favour. Nice work if you can get it.

 

[blackrodd]

I see on Arnold Laver Online sales, click on 25x 200, underneath says that orders are rounded up to the nearest metre.
for wastage, so does that mean that 3m of 25 x 200 is 3 x £2.72, + £2.72, rounded up for waste?
Or if you bought a 2.4, this would be charged at 3M? This could alter you're calculations somewhat.
Being "trade", I would say £13. incl. VAT for 3m of 25 x 200 and pao is not what I would call a rip off.
I have to say, When I make a **** up like that by not paying attention and pay a fiver too much for an Item and discovering this when at home, I would say it's my fault, Cheap lesson, could've been £50!
I would also try and continue trading with what seems to be such an organised and competitive outfit,

At jewsons' if I don't ensure that my metre rate is on the charge note, I'm charged at a higher rate and have to see my
rep to get the pricing altered, meanwhile my account can, and has been stopped until the credit notes and then payment is made and off we go again.
When I looked swiftly just now, it just shows how areas differ so much in stock, stock range and price.
I would like to see an outfit like Arnold laver down here in Sunny Devon
Regards Rodders

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

And that sort of thing encourages corruption, too: if discounts are arbitrary in merchants, bribes get paid and so on. We all know the building trades are full of it,. and there's no reason why they should be.

I remember a project manager from a main contractor I dealt with in a former job being absolutely outraged that I wouldn't falsify invoices so that he could defraud his customer. It was as if I'd run over his cat or something. This sort of bait & switch and corruption doesn't put anyone in a better position over time.

 

[Wizard9999]

I am not arguing about who is right and who is wrong, I'm saying in my following posts that the CEO should be allowed time to respond before being named on an open forum. He may well come back with a perfect explanation or he may not but give the fella a chance.

Just to close off one loose end on this. The CEO had my email over a week ago now, no response, not even an acknowledgement from one of his people with the appropriate platitudes. So if there is a perfectly reasonable explanation I am afraid I still don't know what it is.

Terry.

 

[mind_the_goat]

You have to haggle:

BRIAN: How much? Quick.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: What?
BRIAN: It's for the wife.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Oh. Uhhh, twenty shekels.
BRIAN: Right.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: What?
BRIAN: There you are.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Wait a minute.
BRIAN: What?
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Well, we're-- we're supposed to haggle.
BRIAN: No, no. I've got to get--
HARRY THE HAGGLER: What do you mean, 'no, no, no'?
BRIAN: I haven't time. I've got--
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Well, give it back, then.
BRIAN: No, no, no. I just paid you.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Burt!
BURT: Yeah?
HARRY THE HAGGLER: This bloke won't haggle.
BURT: Won't haggle?!
BRIAN: All right. Do we have to?
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Now, look. I want twenty for that.
BRIAN: I-- I just gave you twenty.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Now, are you telling me that's not worth twenty shekels?
BRIAN: No.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Look at it. Feel the quality. That's none of your goat.
BRIAN: All right. I'll give you nineteen then.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: No, no, no. Come on. Do it properly.
BRIAN: What?
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Haggle properly. This isn't worth nineteen.
BRIAN: Well, you just said it was worth twenty.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Ohh, dear. Ohh, dear. Come on. Haggle.
BRIAN: Huh. All right. I'll give you ten.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: That's more like it. Ten?! Are you trying to insult me?! Me, with a poor dying grandmother?! Ten?!
BRIAN: All right. I'll give you eleven.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Now you're gettin' it. Eleven?! Did I hear you right?! Eleven?! This cost me twelve. You want to ruin me?!
BRIAN: Seventeen?
HARRY THE HAGGLER: No, no, no, no. Seventeen.
BRIAN: Eighteen?
HARRY THE HAGGLER: No, no. You go to fourteen now.
BRIAN: All right. I'll give you fourteen.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Fourteen?! Are you joking?!
BRIAN: That's what you told me to say.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Ohh, dear.
BRIAN: Ohh, tell me what to say. Please!
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Offer me fourteen.
BRIAN: I'll give you fourteen.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: He's offering me fourteen for this!
BRIAN: Fifteen!
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Seventeen. My last word. I won't take a penny less, or strike me dead.
BRIAN: Sixteen.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Done. Nice to do business with you.
BRIAN: Huh.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Tell you what. I'll throw you in this as well.
BRIAN: I don't want it, but thanks.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Burt!
BURT: Yeah?
BRIAN: All right! All right! All right!
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Now, where's the sixteen you owe me?
BRIAN: I just gave you twenty.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Oh, yeah. That's right. That's four I owe you, then.
BRIAN: Well, that's all right. That's fine. That's fine.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: No. Hang on. I've got it here somewhere.
BRIAN: That's all right. That's four for the gourd.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Four? For this gourd? Four?! Look at it. It's worth ten if it's worth a shekel.
BRIAN: But you just gave it to me for nothing.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Yes, but it's worth ten!
BRIAN: All right. All right.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: No, no, no, no. It's not worth ten. You're supposed to argue, 'Ten for that? You must be mad!' Ohh, well. [sniff] One born every minute.

 

[Adam9453]

That did make me chuckle.

I'm afraid in every business / trade / commercial sector, a lot of businesses will charge what they can get away with and as demonstrated above some even expect to haggle so purposefully start their prices high to give room to offer discounts.

Its very much buyer beware on everything and whilst I don't agree agree with the practices, sometimes its better to play the game rather than trying to fight it.

I've been in procurement for years in various industries and negotiating is just common practice I find.