are there any decent techniques for squaring a chisel blade?

[wizard]

Hoeing! I used to use an oil stone, then one day when I was flattening it off on wet and dry paper on a surface plate I thought why bother with the oil stone.
As for angle 25% cuts sharper but 30% will stay sharper longer.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

:lol: So we actually mean "all over the stone" and not "in a figure eight pattern"?

 

[wizard]

Grinding. I use this homemade gadget on a belt sander

 

[wizard]

Drill sharpening I use this

 

[wizard]

Chainsaw sharpening I use this

 

[woodbrains]

Yes, I've both seen it done and use the same method myself. It was a method commonly taught and used years ago in schools/colleges, workshops and on site. The fad for wide stones is a comparatively recent one, while narrower stones - 2" wide or less - tended to see more use, as wider blades are presented to the stone diagonally and not square-on. This works especially well if you wish to even out wear on whetting stones and edges, because a diagonal edge is presented, rather than square/face-on. Dished stones tend to be ones created by enthusiast who've virtually ruined good "long cared for" stones when sharpening knives, etc..

Hello,

Not a couple of threads ago, there were many that chided us for fussing about keeping our stones flat, saying that the natural camber a hollow stone gave to a plane iron was an advantage. Now amateurs are being blamed for dishing their stones. Is it just me that is confused?

Mike.

 

[GazPal]

Yes, I've both seen it done and use the same method myself. It was a method commonly taught and used years ago in schools/colleges, workshops and on site. The fad for wide stones is a comparatively recent one, while narrower stones - 2" wide or less - tended to see more use, as wider blades are presented to the stone diagonally and not square-on. This works especially well if you wish to even out wear on whetting stones and edges, because a diagonal edge is presented, rather than square/face-on. Dished stones tend to be ones created by enthusiast who've virtually ruined good "long cared for" stones when sharpening knives, etc..

Hello,

Not a couple of threads ago, there were many that chided us for fussing about keeping our stones flat, saying that the natural camber a hollow stone gave to a plane iron was an advantage. Now amateurs are being blamed for dishing their stones. Is it just me that is confused?

Mike.

Which couple of threads would they be? I've not read or posted here since toward the end of last May.

Perhaps you were born confused, but why the confusion? :wink: I leave it to the individual to treat his/her tools in whichever manner they deem fit, but mentioned enthusiasts and not amateurs in my last statement. Amateur was your choice of phrase/wording and not mine. Enthusiast can belong to either the amateur or professional camp, but being a professional doesn't necessarily mean you're any good at what you do - it simply means you're paid for your services. Many of the dished stones - as well as one heck of a lot of older hand tools - being toted on ebay, at boot sales, etc., have long since left the care of their original owners and suffered abuse during more recent times, all too much of the recent damage has been inflicted by over zealous enthusiasts possessing only partial skills or information - a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Most whet stones direct from old timers tool kits tend to be flat and not badly dished.

Most craftsmen take a great deal more care of workshop equipment than seems recognised/realised and primarily because we tend to value and care for our tools, but without the fuss so often displayed via tool & gadget salesmen. Tools and their use are - after all is said and done - the means by which we place food on our tables, keep rooves over our heads and cloth our children. Whilst sharpening stones can and do become dished during use, we tend to avoid dishing, because it is more difficult to remove than avoid and techniques can be adopted which minimise potential damage/wear. Hence the use of such whetting methods as the "figure 8" and lack of over frequent re-surfacing.

 

[G S Haydon]

Regarding fig of 8 in the books, yes I have seen it and perhaps if applied with a narrow blade with no variation you would grind a fig 8. I was also shown the fig 8 at college too. I will also confess ignorance to sharpening in general having been a tormek and use guy for a very long time. I did not see the advantage of a secondary bevel for quite a while but this tread does a good job of explaining why there is a grind and a hone bevel very clearly. Most joinery books within the sharpening section give a quick overview and are consistent with the grind and hone description here.

 

[Reggie]

While we're here and discussing sharpening/cutting, what does everyone use as a distance for the chip breaker tip to the blade tip on a no.4 plane and why? I'm not even sure what exactly a chip breaker is supposed to achieve, some are supposed to break chips (I thought we were shaving wood not tearing out chunks when we plane?) and some with the curved end to the breaker are apparently supposed to facilitate curling up the shavings to get them out of way, so to reduce clogging.

I read a post that chris schwarz posted about as small a distance as possible and another that questions their existence entirely.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodw ... tally-evil
http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpe ... ml#caprion

I'm at the stage where I have no experience of what a plane should produce for me, I get the feeling that the fact that the plane iron now has a single consistent bevel on it would produce adequate results for anyone, everything else will come with fine tuning and experience.

 

[G S Haydon]

Hello Reggie,

I recently "Tuned Up" a #4 using David Charlesworth's method as a guide and did a bit of a write up on it here http://gshaydon.co.uk/blog/category/4-plane-2/. There a few posts on there, one of them having a link to the website with David's method shown.

There is a thread where this was discussed on this forum plane-mouth-fettling-t71496.html

Distance for the chip breaker for very fine work is very close to the cutting edge, move it away on less difficult timbers for easier working. I'm not totally sure but I view the chip breaker as a limiter of sorts preventing the cutter ripping in too much, it also adds stiffness to the blade as well.

Also, like you said, you may find other methods and experimenting give you better results on your work. If you want to "Tune it up" and learn some more David's article is well worth a read http://www.rexmill.com/ click the "Tune Up" option on the right of the page and then scroll down to the bottom.

 

[woodbrains]

Which couple of threads would they be? I've not read or posted here since toward the end of last May.

Perhaps you were born confused, but why the confusion? :wink: I leave it to the individual to treat his/her tools in whichever manner they deem fit, but mentioned enthusiasts and not amateurs in my last statement. Amateur was your choice of phrase/wording and not mine. Enthusiast can belong to either the amateur or professional camp, but being a professional doesn't necessarily mean you're any good at what you do - it simply means you're paid for your services. Many of the dished stones - as well as one heck of a lot of older hand tools - being toted on ebay, at boot sales, etc., have long since left the care of their original owners and suffered abuse during more recent times, all too much of the recent damage has been inflicted by over zealous enthusiasts possessing only partial skills or information - a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Most whet stones direct from old timers tool kits tend to be flat and not badly dished.

Most craftsmen take a great deal more care of workshop equipment than seems recognised/realised and primarily because we tend to value and care for our tools, but without the fuss so often displayed via tool & gadget salesmen. Tools and their use are - after all is said and done - the means by which we place food on our tables, keep rooves over our heads and cloth our children. Whilst sharpening stones can and do become dished during use, we tend to avoid dishing, because it is more difficult to remove than avoid and techniques can be adopted which minimise potential damage/wear. Hence the use of such whetting methods as the "figure 8" and lack of over frequent re-surfacing.

Hello,

I'm not disagreeing with you, I like to keep my stones flat, and people I know, who do decent work, do also. But the hollow stone producing a camber, so leave them hollow, argument, rears its head often, the last mention was only in the hand plane thread which is more or less still current. Even just mentioning flat stones here, is likely to prompt the opposite response again #-o .

As far as using the word amateur, I did not mean to infer something different than you meant, but the true definition of amateur is enthusiast, I use them interchangeably. You can be a professional who is also amateur, if you get my meaning. (Still loves, is enthusiastic about what he/she does even though it is paid work) .

It is refreshing that you say that old tools we come across, are not how the good craftsman has left them, but have been tampered with, to some degree, by well meaning, but not necessarily knowledgeable folk, in the intervening period. Many commenters often use old tools as evidence of how things were done and therefore the way they should be done. I have always believed that the tools in second hand shops and the like, we're most likely neglected and abused, and can teach is nothing of past good craftsmen, unless we have a provenance of some sort to prove this was how the craftsman used them.

Mike.

 

[GazPal]

Hello Reggie,

I recently "Tuned Up" a #4 using David Charlesworth's method as a guide and did a bit of a write up on it here http://gshaydon.co.uk/blog/category/4-plane-2/. There a few posts on there, one of them having a link to the website with David's method shown.

There is a thread where this was discussed on this forum plane-mouth-fettling-t71496.html

Distance for the chip breaker for very fine work is very close to the cutting edge A barely perceptable reflective surface, move it away on less difficult timbers for easier working. I'm not totally sure but I view the chip breaker as a limiter of sorts preventing the cutter ripping in too much and acting as a gauge for shaving thickness, it also adds stiffness to the blade as well.

Also, like you said, you may find other methods and experimenting give you better results on your work. If you want to "Tune it up" and learn some more David's article is well worth a read http://www.rexmill.com/ click the "Tune Up" option on the right of the page and then scroll down to the bottom.

I've added a little, but honestly think you've pretty much summed it up G S

While we're here and discussing sharpening/cutting, what does everyone use as a distance for the chip breaker tip to the blade tip on a no.4 plane and why? I'm not even sure what exactly a chip breaker is supposed to achieve, some are supposed to break chips (I thought we were shaving wood not tearing out chunks when we plane?) and some with the curved end to the breaker are apparently supposed to facilitate curling up the shavings to get them out of way, so to reduce clogging.

I read a post that chris schwarz posted about as small a distance as possible and another that questions their existence entirely.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodw ... tally-evil
http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpe ... ml#caprion

I'm at the stage where I have no experience of what a plane should produce for me, I get the feeling that the fact that the plane iron now has a single consistent bevel on it would produce adequate results for anyone, everything else will come with fine tuning and experience.

You'll discover further refinements fall into place as your technique improves with practise and you become accustomed to working with the various timbers at your disposal. Depth of cut/shaving thickness is one variable depending on whether you're preparing materials or finishing a surface.

 

[GazPal]

Which couple of threads would they be? I've not read or posted here since toward the end of last May.

Perhaps you were born confused, but why the confusion? :wink: I leave it to the individual to treat his/her tools in whichever manner they deem fit, but mentioned enthusiasts and not amateurs in my last statement. Amateur was your choice of phrase/wording and not mine. Enthusiast can belong to either the amateur or professional camp, but being a professional doesn't necessarily mean you're any good at what you do - it simply means you're paid for your services. Many of the dished stones - as well as one heck of a lot of older hand tools - being toted on ebay, at boot sales, etc., have long since left the care of their original owners and suffered abuse during more recent times, all too much of the recent damage has been inflicted by over zealous enthusiasts possessing only partial skills or information - a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Most whet stones direct from old timers tool kits tend to be flat and not badly dished.

Most craftsmen take a great deal more care of workshop equipment than seems recognised/realised and primarily because we tend to value and care for our tools, but without the fuss so often displayed via tool & gadget salesmen. Tools and their use are - after all is said and done - the means by which we place food on our tables, keep rooves over our heads and cloth our children. Whilst sharpening stones can and do become dished during use, we tend to avoid dishing, because it is more difficult to remove than avoid and techniques can be adopted which minimise potential damage/wear. Hence the use of such whetting methods as the "figure 8" and lack of over frequent re-surfacing.

Hello,

I'm not disagreeing with you, I like to keep my stones flat, and people I know, who do decent work, do also. But the hollow stone producing a camber, so leave them hollow, argument, rears its head often, the last mention was only in the hand plane thread which is more or less still current. Even just mentioning flat stones here, is likely to prompt the opposite response again #-o .

As far as using the word amateur, I did not mean to infer something different than you meant, but the true definition of amateur is enthusiast, I use them interchangeably. You can be a professional who is also amateur, if you get my meaning. (Still loves, is enthusiastic about what he/she does even though it is paid work) .

It is refreshing that you say that old tools we come across, are not how the good craftsman has left them, but have been tampered with, to some degree, by well meaning, but not necessarily knowledgeable folk, in the intervening period. Many commenters often use old tools as evidence of how things were done and therefore the way they should be done. I have always believed that the tools in second hand shops and the like, we're most likely neglected and abused, and can teach is nothing of past good craftsmen, unless we have a provenance of some sort to prove this was how the craftsman used them.

Mike.

I think we're in agreement on virtually every point.

The reason I mention the condition many older tools tend to be in by the time they pass into competent hands is due to the fact they meet with so many levels of abuse between leaving their original owners and reaching the likes of ourselves. An old friend passed away a number of years ago and had his tool kit inherited by his three sons, but none had taken any interest in crafting or spending time with their dad as he worked, so during the passage of time they'd collectively eventually destroyed what had been a mouth-wateringly good kit of tools that any craftsman would have been proud to use - never mind own. The "use the chisel as a screwdriver and visa versa brigade" had struck again.

 

[Jacob]

...
You'll discover further refinements fall into place as your technique improves with practise and you become accustomed to working with the various timbers at your disposal. ....

Very first practice efforts perhaps best kept to edges of thin boards. It's easiest, you get a result, you can see what's happening as you try different parts of the blade and different adjustments.

 

[G S Haydon]

Thank you Gazpal, Your additions are welcome and add some clarity.

 

[Reggie]

Gazpal, my singular experience so far has been a set of chisels and a plane that have had a single owner and been used by an enthusiast but not necessarily as well cared for as they would have been by a pro, to be fair, I don't see what I've done with the chisels and plane as being 'pro' just the right way to care for the tools given all of the information. So really, some of these 2nd hand tools you see that are battered have never had a 'good' owner, just good enough to have gotten years of decent work out of their tools.

I think that's pretty much the issue for all hobbyists just starting out vs people that do it for a trade, we have no point of reference as a base to start from, that's all I've tried to achieve here, get an even keel, now I have that I can start to practice and learn from my mistakes.

 

[G S Haydon]

Reggie, you sound very Zen indeed. Please keep contributing.

 

[nanscombe]

:lol: So we actually mean "all over the stone" and not "in a figure eight pattern"?

Or do we mean "all over the stone" in "a figure of eight motion".

Surely no-one says you have to perform the figure of eight in exactly the same spot? Just move the overall motion forwards and backwards in relation to the stone.

 

[Reggie]

Thank you, it's been a great place to learn, I never expected the discussion to go on this long but it's all helped, even the conflicting views, as well as given me a good grounding in chisels, planes, sharpening and usage techniques, it's all helped to give me some proper perspective on hand tools and power tools in general too Thank you all very much

 

[richard56]

:lol: So we actually mean "all over the stone" and not "in a figure eight pattern"?

Or do we mean "all over the stone" in "a figure of eight motion".

Surely no-one says you have to perform the figure of eight in exactly the same spot? Just move the overall motion forwards and backwards in relation to the stone.

That is what I meant. I did not explain it very well.