Anybody in Devon with PV Solar Panels please?

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:!: :) :!: You could have a rainwater harvesting system - channel all your household roof water, and roof water from your 'shop, greenhouse, garage into one channel to feed it, and put a waterwheel on it!
 
Update - 27.4 kWh today. I think that's the most we've generated in one day since installation. long may this continue!!

K
 
Whilst not wishing to enter into a "mine's bigger than yours" scenario, we got 29.5 kWh generated today' which is also a new single day record for us.
 
According to an article in the press, the bubble has burst on home installation - now would take 16.5yrs to recoup expenditures?
Based on new current payment rate of 14.9p, £7k installation costs plus maintenance.

Only worth considering if you can maximise the use yourself, of the electricity generated during the daytime?

Rod
 
16 years seems a very long time, Anyone considering a purchase should sit down and work out the numbers themselves with realistic estimates for sunshine etc in your area. I would be very suspicious of figures I see in the press, they are not known for accuracy and often have an agenda.

We got a quote a few years ago from one of those companies that sell via high profile marketing, rather than offering realistic pricing, they wanted over 20K for a 4Kw system, at the higher rate that still looked like 25 years payback. The scary thing is they do sell product at those sorts of prices.
 
The figures are no where near as clear cut as they were a couple of years back. It stacks up far better at 46.81p per kwh than the current rate of 15.44p per kwh, even though we paid more for our system. Pay back period for us based on the first 18 months of use, during which the weather hasn't been fabulous, is about 6 years. After that it's all profit and we'll then have 19 years of receiving the higher FIT, linked to RPI, by the end of which we'll be in our mid 80's so i reckon that'll do me.

A neighbour aged 83 asked me to come over a couple of weeks back as she had a PV salesman in and she was getting worried about whether she was doing the right thing. He was trying to take £9750 off her for a 3kw system installed on an East/West roof. For an 83 year old? He was trying to justify it financially and tying her in knots. People who work in financial services have to pass umpteen exams, do a full financial fact find and produce a written report detailing why the product is suitable, and which they leave with the customer before they can even recommend a £10 per month savings plan, and yet these sharks can take nearly £10k off an old lady on the basis that in "makes financial sense and will pay for itself in no time at all" without having to verify anything or even find out whether they can afford it! Next scandal waiting to happen I reckon.
 
Hi Rogerm,
we had 28.4 today - a new record for us. Never had 28 before. I think you're doing really well to get 29.5

BUT - how is it that we can generate say 3.8kW during a break in the clouds, but about 2.8 kW when the sky is totally cloudless (similar times of the day)? I find that strange. Also there seems to be higher generation when the panels are cooler. I'm wondering whether to install a sprinkler system to keep the panels cooler !! (powered by solar energy of course)

K
 
Clouds reflect light. That's why they're bright white (sometimes).

On a totally clear day there's more direct light, but only from one direction. If your panels accept from a wide angle (they jolly well should), I'd imagine they're getting energy from both the sun and re-radiated from any bright clouds in the area.

I can't see that working if they're in a cloud shadow, but otherwise, quite possibly.

I've been told in the tropics you can cook in a small pot suspended over a rough parabola of silver foil about 70cm wide. I have an old 18" searchlight mirror. In this weather it will cause a piece of pine to burst into flame with little smoke preceding. Shaving mirrors have also been known to start curtains off...

E.
 
graduate_owner":3iqijt2l said:
Hi Rogerm,
BUT - how is it that we can generate say 3.8kW during a break in the clouds, but about 2.8 kW when the sky is totally cloudless (similar times of the day)? I find that strange. Also there seems to be higher generation when the panels are cooler. I'm wondering whether to install a sprinkler system to keep the panels cooler !! (powered by solar energy of course)

K

When you say "similar time of day", is it also the same time of year? Clearly in the winter the sun is lower at any given time of day and the strength of sunlight falling on the panel will be less than in the summer. Also, whilst I don't know for sure, when there is a cloudless sky it is often when there is a high pressure system sat over the UK which holds down the dust, creating haze, and I wonder whether that filters out some of the wavelengths that the panels are converting to power? Conversely, if there are gaps in the cloud, it may be that convection and rain has cleared the air of dust so that the quality of the sunlight reaching the panels is better, creating more power. That is pure speculation on my part though.

I too have noticed that more power is generated on a cold day. I don't think panels are any different to other electronic devices in this respect in that they are more sensitive when kept cool. After all, the sensitive collectors on space telescopes are cooled with liquid helium that keep them at maximum sensitivity, and it has long been known that cables kept cool conduct electricity far more efficiently than when they are hot. I believe that there is a new generation of panels that are water cooled to improve efficiency, and that the power consumption of circulating the water is more than made up by the greater efficiency caused by the cooling.
 
RogerM":39deyek2 said:
I don't think panels are any different to other electronic devices in this respect in that they are more sensitive when kept cool.
Their internal resistance rises with temperature, I believe.
... the sensitive collectors on space telescopes are cooled with liquid helium that keep them at maximum sensitivity.
That's to reduce thermal noise induced in the CCD arrays that are the sensors. It's been done that way for decades, and you can buy bolt-on Peltier heat pumps for the sensors on amateur telescopes to do the same thing. In fact you usually can't get very good (astronomic) results without them (but there are simple ways of removing *some* noise via software).

It's a confounded nuisance in my Canon 30D camera. For stupid "marketing" reasons, all the major camera manufacturers have settled on black as a camera colour, and sunshine makes mine go very noisy in the darker parts of the picture. I take spherical panoramas as a hobby, and exposure is always a compromise. I found out with great sadness last year in the Italian Lakes, that the thing is pretty useless in direct summer sunshine if I want shadow detail. There's no easy way round the problem - keeping the camera cool causes condensation on the cold surfaces. I may yet cover it in baking foil!

I believe that there is a new generation of panels that are water cooled to improve efficiency, and that the power consumption of circulating the water is more than made up by the greater efficiency caused by the cooling.
It's a very sensible idea, but another way of looking at it is that the conversion efficiency of photovoltaic solar collectors is poor, so you can improve the efficiency by heating water in the same panel simultaneously.

Bluntly, photovoltaic performance is pisspoor. Yahoo Answers* give the theoretical energy density of sunshine on the Earth's surface (avg. in the USA) as roughly 1kW/sqm. Let's be reasonable here: assume 50% efficiency as a conversion target, that's say 6kWh per 1sqm panel per day.

What's the area of solar panels on your roof and where do they point?

In contrast, our solar water heating is pretty good in optimum conditions like today. I usually have the cutoff temperature in the tank set at around 65degC, for human safety (for some reason, people don't expect scalding water from the hot taps!).

Assuming a cold start for the tank (which isn't uncommon as I have a bath and the rest of the family showers first thing), it's usually at storage temperature by lunchtime (midday BST) in the summer:
Code:
Start temp = 15deg 
Cutoff = 65 degC
.: delta = 50degC
Tank capacity: 300 litres
.: Energy input by lunchtime = 15,000 kcal
or                           =    62.76 MJ
or                           =    17.43 kWh
Obviously it doesn't have internal resistance to worry about!

So in theory it could do about 35kWh for roughly half the year, if I could store the hot water, and if it was as efficient as that on cloudy days (it isn't). But it would also run a lot hotter too, if it was safe to do so, so I've no idea how efficient it could really be.

We have 8sqm on the roof, so that's:

17.43(kWh) / 6(hours) / 8(sqm) = 0.36kW per panel.

I don't think 36% efficiency is at all bad for a system that cost about £3,000 all-in, and for which the only bit that'll ever wear out is a bog standard central heating pump.

Someone please check my maths, and someone, please do the sums for photovoltaics!

E.


*can't be bothered to search further!
 

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