Anybody in Devon with PV Solar Panels please?

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Charlie Woody

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West Devon
I am considering installing PV Solar Panels and wonder if anybody in Devon has experience of them please?

In particular:

1. Did the system generate the amount of electricity that the installer predicted?
2. Have you had any problems with the system?
3. What lessons have you learned from this that would make you do things differently if you were doing it again?
4. I have a fridge (about 7 years old Siemens) which says it is not suitable to work with solar, have you come across this problem? I have emailed Siemens.
5. Permitted development rights for my property were withdrawn in the 1990's (before I moved here) - is it possible to apply to have these reinstated?

Any other advice would be very welcome please.
 
Not in Devon, but in Chichester so that should give you some idea. We had our system installed in September 2010. The installation certificate gives the expected generation and so far we have exceeded this each year - for the 4 months of 2010 it produced about 140% of expectation, for 2011 the whole year produced 118% and for 2012 113%. So far this year we have produced 104% of expectation.

The system has worked well, the only problem we had was a faulty wireless sender to run a remote production display, but it did not affect the generation.

Use a decent installer that does a full site survey especially assessing any potential shading problems. Our installer was excellent but others have apparently not been so good.

I think the fridge problem is if the only power you have is produced by PV. If (as most people have) you have a mains connected system then this won't be a problem as the system ensures you have a steady mains supply whether or not the PV is actually producing.

I'm not sure about permitted development rights. When we installed our system we went to the local council to check whether we needed permission, They were very helpful and explained the limitations and said we could go ahead without any formal permission being required. When we got to the council offices they had a large display showing the production from their own PV system and they were keen to encourage others. I'd have a word with your local planners to see what they say.

Misterfish
 
I can also cofirm(not in Devon)I have had panels for 2 years and they have exceeded expectations and we did not have a very sunny year in Aberdeen last year.Do a bit of research on panels as the effiency is improving all the time and watch for the double glazing salesman type companies who start off at £15000 and end up at £7000 as you push them out the door.
 
At a guess the fridge thing is because of the waveform produced.

Solar panels work at realtively high DC voltages (they are wired in series), and the output is inverted to give AC power around 240V. The cheapest way to do this is to create a square wave (the mains is as close to sinusoidal as possible). This will damage many designs of induction motor (and other things!), because of the high proportion of odd harmonics - these effectively heat the motor rather than causing it to rotate, so it overheats and burns out. There are other issues with low voltages and squirrel cage induction motors, but that's probably not relevant here.

There's no fix for this, apart from using a much more expensive and better quality inverter.

It may be that the system you're considering produces good quality sine wave output. Frankly, I'd be slightly surprised if it didn't, because of the need to feed into the mains: the supply companies used to take a dim view of muck (interference) being distributed via the mains, and electrical/electronic equipment has had supressors fitted on the mains leads both to protect the devices and to stop noisy equipment broadcasting via the mains wiring. They are the usually-cylindrical bulges you see on laptop power cables, etc., but there are other filters (chokes) usually hidden inside the power supply itself.

The issue is more likely to occur with small petrol/diesel generators, which are notorious for horrible waveforms. I suspect SIemens are covering their collective bottoms in this regard.

FWIW, we have 8 sqm of solar water heating on the roof. It's excellent - very low maintenance, efficient and effective, but we have a roof facing due south at a good angle. If there weren't subsidies, solar electrical generation probably wouldn't be used here in the UK except for special purposes, because the payback is so poor. If the present subsidy scheme is cut, it changes the economics entirely. It's also the case that the quality of the components used in photovoltaic systems has fallen dramatically.

With our solar water heating, the only moving part is an ordinary single-speed central heating pump, and the controller has fewer components than an old transistor radio. It's been installed for about ten years, and it works well. I can't tell you how much it contributes, but the heating can go off completely from about now onwards (apart from the late evening if everyone in the house wants a bath at the same time!. We need a bigger tank really, as we can make much more hot water than we can store.

There are two reasons for using AC current to distribute power: one is the ability to change the voltage easily, and the second is that it eases the difficulties of switching high power circuits. At national grid level, these are quite non trivial (if you've ever stood near a station when it switches, you'll know - it's deafening), but it's also difficult to switch high DC voltages - the techniques are well understood but the componentry is expensive if it is to be reliable. This doesn't fit well with the present mad rush to solar. Likewise the panel cost has dropped dramatically too (they have a limited life, incidentally, because of UV effects).

So the comments about avoiding sharp salesmen very much apply. There is cheap and nasty kit out there that will give problems. There is probably good quality stuff that won't, but having solar on the roof isn't fit-and-forget, as there will be a requirement to replace panels in due course, also, as I have found, they can make roof maintenance very awkward and expensive.

You have to take a view as to how long the subsidies will continue, and, IMHO, choose your supplier most carefully.

E.
 
Charlie Woody":rqcaeojs said:
I am considering installing PV Solar Panels and wonder if anybody in Devon has experience of them please?

In particular:

1. Did the system generate the amount of electricity that the installer predicted?
2. Have you had any problems with the system?
3. What lessons have you learned from this that would make you do things differently if you were doing it again?
4. I have a fridge (about 7 years old Siemens) which says it is not suitable to work with solar, have you come across this problem? I have emailed Siemens.
5. Permitted development rights for my property were withdrawn in the 1990's (before I moved here) - is it possible to apply to have these reinstated?

Any other advice would be very welcome please.

We have a 4Kw system based in the South Hams using Sanyo Monocrystalline panels. Estimated output was 3,900 kwh per year, and the first full year to the end of October last year was 4,494 so comfortably exceeded expectations. However, it is well known that the South Hams have a micro-climate where sunshine exceeds estimates for Devon as a whole as we're in the rain shadow of Dartmoor when the wind is in the West - North West. Even on a bright overcast day we produce about 1500 watts which is enough for most purposes and we've seen our summer quarter electricity usage fall by 60%. We have a simple pitched roof facing almost exactly due south and with no shade issues whatsoever, so our situation is ideal.

I don't think we'd do anything differently. We got in before the FIT change, but also probably paid over the odds based on todays prices. However, having collected over £2,000 in the last year we're happy with the return on investment. It will take 6 years to pay for itself and after that it's tax free RPI linked income for the remaining 19 years of the FIT - so long as the govt doesn't welch on the agreement!

I don't think that the fridge issue will be relevant for reasons stated above. Also I would be surprised if Permited Development rules would affect an installation. We live in a designated Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, and the planners weren't interested, and confirmed that no planning consent was required provided that the array did not extend above the ridgeline of the roof.

HTH
 
That's an interesting one on the FIT's. No government can commit a future government to anything, so why shouldn't they say at sometime in the future - sorry about this, but we're a bit hard up so we're stopping these payments. There's probably a simple answer, but I haven't heard it yet.
 
We had our 3.5kw system installed just last Nov... 29th in fact.

It consists of 14 ReneSola panels running through an SMA SunnyBoy 3600TL inverter, which has a digital display on the front so you can see whats happening.... but if its too much trouble to go out into the garage to have a look, its also Bluetooth..! so i've downloaded the free software from SMA and i can now sit in comfort looking at how much we are producing 'live'... in fact i've just turned the immersion heater on to make use of the 'free' electricity to heat our water.

We paid £4600 fully installed... for everything, and i mean everything, no hidden costs.

Unlike our neighbours that got in early and are getting the higher FIT tariff, we are on the reduced tariff. But... we paid considerably less than they did just 6 months previously.

Any problems...?? None....

Any regrets...?? None....

Would i recommend it...?? hell yes...!!

Would i recommend the peeps that did it....?? oh yes...!! (if you like, PM me and i'll send you their address)


Nick


oh... and just to give you some idea... on average our 'lecky usage is around 8kw a day... so far today we've 'made' 15.5kw from Mr Sun 8)
 
Hi,
again this may not be relevant to you, but we had a 4kW system installed 21 months ago in West Wales. The installer looked at our roof alignment and said we'd probably be better off not having panels. Then he looked at our shed and suggested we install them on that roof. (Two other installers said our house would be fine, not ideal but fine). So we went with the guy who suggested the shed roof as he seemed honest enough to turn down business, rather than install whatever the conditions.

We had to apply for planning permission because the shed was 'outside the curtilage of the house' and this cost about £150 plus a 3 month wait (during what seemed to be the sunniest spring we'd had for a while!!) because it had to be a full planning application and not an amendment (my fault).

The system has performed well, and we have received over £2200 so far, with an initial cost of £12500. I'm expecting a payback time of about 10 years unless of course we start getting decent summers. We've had no problems so far anyway. The peak generation I've seen is 4.3kW, but there doesn't seem to be any logic to the generation. We could easily get 3.5kW on a March day when the sun breaks through some cloud, but only 2.5kW on a summer day with a totally blue sky. It could be because the panels are more efficient when cooler, or there may be variations in solar intensity which the panels respond to but which are not noticeable to us. Does anyone have any other explanation?

We 'got in' at the start, with high installation costs but high FITs, currently earning about 48p per unit including export tariff. We also prefer to have the system on the shed, as any leaks won't be so significant and it doesn't affect house roof maintenance.

I don't regret having the system installed one bit. The thing is, I had the money in the bank (retirement payout) but what good is that? It's very nice to have a buffer against any unforeseen issues but apart from that any extra money just goes down in value despite current high interest rates!! If you spend it then it's no longer there in the bank, if you save it then the value depreciates, and if you invest it in high return investments then there's always a risk of serious loss. With the solar panels, the return on investment is around 10%, and you have the 25 year RPI-adjusted tax-free government guarantee, provided the government stick to their word. I think to do otherwise would seriously affect the credibility of any future government schemes such as bond issues etc. They might continue to reduce the attractiveness of the system for new applicants, but I think existing installations are likely to be protected - just my opinion.

As has been said, choose the installer carefully - try to get a local recommendation. You can easily see who's got the panels in your area so you could perhaps do a 'cold call' on some of these and ask about customer satisfaction.

Hope this helps.

K
 
NikNak":3edhckun said:
oh... and just to give you some idea... on average our 'lecky usage is around 8kw a day... so far today we've 'made' 15.5kw from Mr Sun 8)

As written, that makes no sense.

Kilowatts are units of power, but you consume and generate energy (usually kiloJoules or kilowatt-hours (that's kilowatts multiplied by time).

For greatest efficiency you want to synchronise your water tank's immersion heater so that it comes on at times of peak generation. Making a tankful of hot water locally is the only practical way to make use of any surplus.

Whatever they pay you as 'feed-in tariff,' the actual energy transfer is largely pointless: it's too insignificant to affect the bigger generating stations on the grid, and there's pretty much no way to store the energy you contribute (apart from making hot water). Statements to the contrary are pretty much all politicians' guff.

I do wish we had an honest green energy policy!

E.

PS: Reading the post above from Keith reminds me: there are some right old cowboys out there, so be careful. There is a large installation at the end of our road on an EAST-facing roof. Our solar supplier was here last summer to help remove and replace our panels (for dormer roof repairs - the solar was working fine). They commented on the one at the end of the road.
 
So sorry.... did i miss off the 'h' and it should have read kwh....?

update..... since posting approx 1 hr ago... its now gone up to 18.76kwh generated today...


My missus has got into the habit of doing the washing, ironing, dishwasher etc at peak times of generation. Today is the first time (due to my shift pattern) that i was able to switch the immersion heater on.




N
 
NikNak":14yswhdi said:
So sorry.... did i miss off the 'h' and it should have read kwh....?

update..... since posting approx 1 hr ago... its now gone up to 18.76kwh generated today...


My missus has got into the habit of doing the washing, ironing, dishwasher etc at peak times of generation. Today is the first time (due to my shift pattern) that i was able to switch the immersion heater on.

And you're quite right - those are good ways to use the surplus, too. I should have said the only way you can easily store the energy you generate is as hot water.

:)

E.
 
A near neighbour had a massive array of PV panels put in to feed his house and the ground source heat pump. He regularly posts updates in the parish newsletter. The bottom line in his last update is that the whole thing has been an unmitigated disaster with payback periods when he is dead and buried. I can dig out more specifics if anyone is interested.
 
Lots of interesting info - thanks guys.

The system that I have been offered is as follows below. The company were recommended to me by a friend who used them to install solar water heating system. They have not given me a hard sell (so far). My roof is South East facing and according to the charts he had should be 94% of what South would generate.

PV panels made by REC Model 250PE 250 Watts peak
Inverter made by SMA Model 3600TL

How do I establish if these products are good or not?

The company says that they are not tied to any manufacturer so will quote for any alternative I wish to choose.

They will get another company to do the EPC as I don't have one and only charge me for this if I don't go with their offer. Total cost is just over £6k with payback predicted for 6/7 years. I don't mind if it takes a bit longer as I am doing this to slightly reduce my future electricity bills.
 
If you really wanted to get full benefit from the installation, there seem to be some home automation products available for reasonable prices now. If your PV controller has some sort of output that triggers when it's supplying to the grid, you could use it to switch on your immersion heater, washing machine (woodwork machines :) ) etc. Your installers may be able to advise on that too.
 
This is for Charlie, but I welcome someone checking my maths:

We were discussing via PM, the efficiency drop-off for sites that don't face due south. I think a modified cosine law applies, like this:

solar panel.png


But above isn't right as it stands, as facing East should be 50%, not zero. So:

  • If a south-facing solar panel at the optimum tilt angle is 100% of what's achievable with a static installation,
  • and assuming the angle of deviation from due south is "A,"
  • Efficiency = 0.5 + (0.5 x cosA)

That gives:
  • South-south east: 96.2%
  • South-east: 85.4%
  • East-south-east: 69.1%

I think there is a similar calculation for the angle of tilt of the roof away from being perpendicular to the ecliptic (the track of the sun), but it's a simple cosine law, per diagram (if the panel is in the plane of the ecliptic, it doesn't ever see the sun so output is zero).

Even this can't be right ( ](*,) Due East facing isn't going to 50%, because the sun doesn't rise in the east and sink in the west (at these latitudes). An then you still have to add back in an allowance for generation from ambient light, and presumably ambient temperature too.

My head hurts!

E.
 

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Just a short follow-up -
for the last 2 days, with mainly clear skies or slight cloud cover, we have generated just over 25kWH per day. This compares with about 2kWH on days of really heavy cloud cover. During the winter I noticed the inverter had not even started up before about 11.30, although this is exceptional and I've only seen that happen on about 3 occasions (might have happened without my knowing, of course).

I get quite resentful of clouds these days.

K
 
Guys

Many thanks for all your helpful input. Whist looking into this - checking the outside of the house etc - I realised that my stone & cob walls are going to need some TLC, so PV will have to wait until funds permit.

Some very helpful posts so thanks a million everyone.
 
graduate_owner":ejd6mgel said:
Just a short follow-up -
for the last 2 days, with mainly clear skies or slight cloud cover, we have generated just over 25kWH per day. This compares with about 2kWH on days of really heavy cloud cover. During the winter I noticed the inverter had not even started up before about 11.30, although this is exceptional and I've only seen that happen on about 3 occasions (might have happened without my knowing, of course).

I get quite resentful of clouds these days.

K

Sounds about right. So far this month with some bright sunshine but overcast this afternoon we have generated 166 kwh for an average of 23.7 kwh per day.
 
Weather's beginning to look up. Generated 603 KwH in May. That's just under the 618KwH we produced in May last year. Last June was a catastrophe with only 465 KwH generated so hoping for better this year. Today was a good start with 28KwH.
 
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