Advice: Router table upgrade vs spindle moulder

[ormandge]

Hi all,

I'm after some advice. I've got a generic router table, with a Rutlands R15 router lift and motor combo in. The table itself has pressed angle legs, so is pretty unstable, and the fences aren't aligned as the outfeed side has a slight lip. I need to move the workpiece off the fence to get past the lip, which gives me the willies each time I do it. There is no adjustment mechanism for the fence. I appreciate I could potentially make something to resolve this.

I'm just a hobbyist, so I don't need a production workhorse, but I do find the functionality of a router table useful so would like to upgrade to something.

All that is to say, I've been looking at options:
- I can get one of the Rutlands tables, which obviously the lift would fit in to. Cost would be ~£500 for laminate, ~£700 for phenolic, ~£800 for cast.
- I looked at the UJK pro table which is 20% off at the moment, but seems to use a non-standard size lift so I'd need to change that - additional cost. Roughly £1000 for table + lift (I'll keep the existing router motor, sell the R15 lift).
- Alternatively I'd considered the Charnwood W030 spindle moulder as I believe there's a 1/2" collet to use router bits. Cost for this is ~£900.
- I can potentially get a 2nd hand SIP 01456 tilting spindle moulder, assuming it's still available once I've made a decision (!). This would be ~£850 delivered.

Going the spindle moulder route, I'd just be using it as a router table initially, as I already have 1/2" bits. I would then look to pick up spindle moulder bits as and when.

The options are all in the same ballpark in terms of cost, so from that point of view either of the options works.

If you have any opinions or ideas, I'm all ears!

 

[Jake]

Most spindle moulders can't do the speed necessary for router bits so there's no easy in-between - the ones that can need a change of spindle and tend to be very expensive and even then only do speeds suitable for large router bits.

Spindle moulders are great, I have a small one (an EB TF100), but it gets much much less use in practice than my router table. If there's enough of a run to make it worth the tooling cost and set up time then it gets a go. I don't think it is as straightforward as others on here do as to which is preferable for a diy/hobby type useage. Plainly the SM is a better trade/industrial tool, but if your more likely task is, say, running a quick trench then a round-over on a few metres - I'd say less than 50m - of stock, it'd be router table for me every time just for set up time reasons even if I already had the right block/knives for the SM.

 

[ormandge]

Thanks Jake, that's a really useful response. I think based on that, I'll give the SM a miss and take a look at a replacement router table.

 

[Kayen]

Buy one of the readily available inset plates and make your own. At most it will cost you £100, but probably a lot less.

 

[ormandge]

Thanks Kayen! I had considered making my own, but figured that by the time I've picked up steel/aluminium to make a solid frame, some reasonable material for the top, hardware for mitre slots and fence guides, feet for levelling, castors for moving, I think I'd be closer to £150-200.

Then consider the time I'd have to spend making it, and how little time I have as it is, I'd rather just spend the money and use the time saved for my hobby.

Might be the wrong way to look at it, but I think buying something complete is the way I'd rather go.

 

[Amplidyne]

Most spindle moulders can't do the speed necessary for router bits so there's no easy in-between - the ones that can need a change of spindle and tend to be very expensive and even then only do speeds suitable for large router bits.

Spindle moulders are great, I have a small one (an EB TF100), but it gets much much less use in practice than my router table. If there's enough of a run to make it worth the tooling cost and set up time then it gets a go. I don't think it is as straightforward as others on here do as to which is preferable for a diy/hobby type useage. Plainly the SM is a better trade/industrial tool, but if your more likely task is, say, running a quick trench then a round-over on a few metres - I'd say less than 50m - of stock, it'd be router table for me every time just for set up time reasons even if I already had the right block/knives for the SM.

Just what I'd say. Spidle moulder has it's uses. but much more "industrial" kit. Longer runs with one setup etc.
Router table has it for small jobs every time. I have both, but I've used the router table much more.

 

[Diver Fred]

How about This - mate is chuffed with his.

 

[Jacob]

A smallish router as a hand tool makes sense but the bigger they go the less "handy" they are, and a spindle starts looking like a better option.
Supply becomes the issue - 2.5kw makes a big router but a very small spindle moulder - 5kw is more like it but you'd need 3 phase.
What you get with a spindle moulder, ideally with a power feed but not essential, is fast throughput and unvarying precision. You can stand there all day feeding through small or large mouldings, glazing bars to door frames, and every one perfect.
Personally I hate routers - the noise, the dust, not to mention the errors, but a big spindle moulder is a pleasure to use.

 

[deema]

Well, interesting views about the router table versus a spindle. Now, I’m a spindle man through and though. I’ve used a router table, and can say categorically I can setup up a spindle faster than a router table. I’m fairly sure that in a ‘shoot out’ with someone used to setting up a router table it would be a very close thing on who was quickest.

In terms of length of stuff you can put through a spindle, the shortest I will run is 50 cm, which is also about the shortest I’d put over my planner thicknesser. I would say that putting 50cm though a spindle with a power feed is far safer and will produce a better result than any router table without a power feed.

Lastly, on a router the biggest diameter of the shaft on a router is 1/2 inch. In my experience it doesn’t take much to bend / brake a 1/2” shaft especially if you take too large a cut / hurt up the cut. If it does let go, it’s going to get exciting! A spindle with a 30mm shaft isn’t going to care what depth of cut you take or how much you hurry up the cut…..it isn’t going to brake or bend.

 

[Jacob]

A smallish router as a hand tool makes sense but the bigger they go the less "handy" they are, and a spindle starts looking like a better option.
Supply becomes the issue - 2.5kw makes a big router but a very small spindle moulder - 5kw is more like it but you'd need 3 phase.
What you get with a spindle moulder, ideally with a power feed but not essential, is fast throughput and unvarying precision. You can stand there all day feeding through small or large mouldings, glazing bars to door frames, and every one perfect.
Personally I hate routers - the noise, the dust, not to mention the errors, but a big spindle moulder is a pleasure to use.

PS I'd add: for straight-through mouldings, slots, rebates, large or small, the spindle is utterly superior. There's very little you can do with a router which can't be done much better with a spindle. If you venture into grinding your own cutters the spindle is also very much cheaper to tool up, particularly if you want to replicate any particular moulding.

 

[Doug B]

For me it really does depend on what you are wanting to do.
I have a spindle & it’s excellent particularly for me when making deep grooves, architraves, skirting & door frames things that require removal of large amounts of timber, the spindle will do this in one pass.
When it comes to small chamfers & round overs etc it’s the router table every time, by the time I’ve swapped cutters in my spindle block, set it in the machine, adjusted the fence & set the power feed up I’d already be machining on the router table.
Plus as most advocates for spindle moulders here will tell you the safest way to use a spindle moulder is with a power feed what they fail to mention is that that power feed will cost you as much as a half decent router table set up & you’ve still got the spindle moulder & blocks to buy.
I’ve always built my own router tables but if I was looking to buy a table I’d certainly like to see the table @Diver Fred linked to, I don’t know the brand but that seems very reasonable for a cast iron table.

 

[deema]

Now paraphrasing a comment ‘What most advocates of the router table fail to tell you is that it is a dinky spindle moulder and SHOULD be used with a powerfeed for safety’.

You can use either machine without a powerfeed, indeed for a number of years I used my spindle with just shaw guards…..which you almost never see used in a router table! The cutters on a router extend the same distance as those of a spindle moulder (using a modern safety block with limiters as you should) so, the ability of either to cut off bits is exactly the same. What you see uTube in virtually all cases is absolutely the absurdly dangerous use of a router table…..fingers passing tiny bits of wood over the cutter head with no guards or indeed push sticks. The use of extenders and muscle chucks etc that may or may not be balanced increasing the chance of the shaft getting bent or breaking.

At the end of the day, you need to make an informed decision. I posted a thread on the spindle moulder that may be worth a read. There are passionate proponents for both the spindle and the router table. I hate routers (I do have a couple of hand held units as they do have their advantages and place) but won’t use a router table as I like to count to ten without taking my socks off!

 

[johnnyb]

I think these arguments always consider a router table as a safer option and therefore to be commended to beginners. I see why i really do but setting a spindle is for me generally safer. The danger is not setting/tightening it up correctly. Generally my fingers are nowhere near in use on straight stuff. The same isnt true of router tables, you need to get intimate with them. Some instruction/help with either seems prudent.

 

[johnnyb]

Anything filmed by roy sutton is superb as he was a master using both.

 

[heimlaga]

I am a fan of spindle moulders but to me it seems a small spindle moulder has the downsides of both a router table and a spindle moulder. A spindle moulder should be big to really shine. I like my SCM l'Invincibile T160. I owned and used an industrial spindle moulder for many years before I found it worth the cost to buy a router. Theese days I have a router table but it gets very little use. However it saves me a few hours of handtool work at times so it is worth having I suppose.

I personally don't think router tables are safer than spindle moulders. I don't have any statistics but to me it seems accidents happen much more often on router tables but because of small tooling and limited power significantly less damage is done per accident. One fingertip at a time. On a spindle moulder accidents are rarer but when it happens someone tends to loose an entire finger.

The downside with spindle moulders is expensive tooling. Very expensive. Router tooling in a spindle moulder usually doesn't work very well because with very few exceptions spindle moulders don't have high enough RPM for router tooling.

So in your case for your particular needs a router table may be a better idea. Because of cheaper tooling and smaller footprint.

However a large sindle moulder will always be a greater time saver. All the work done on router tables can be done with handtools if you don't mind spending a couple of hours extra.

Just my thoughts....... from a semi-professional point of wiew.

 

[Spectric]

What stands out for me when looking at people using a spindle & a router table is that a router only has a limited height of cut, about 75mm and you need to take far more smaller cuts and have to often use built up profiles but the spindle just makes them. If looking a spindle then I would say power is important and a three phase supply to run a 5kW motor would be nice but the spindle does have that large heavy head so plenty of inertia compared to a router.

 

[deema]

I have a Sedgwick spindle with a 3KW single phase motor. I’ve made all sorts out of oak taking huge bits out and not had issues with power. 3KW is the biggest motor you can run on single phase.
I generally use steel blocks for the momentum, but do have some aluminium for the really large blocks just because they are heavy in steel. Ie my 100mm rebate block and cill block are both aluminium.

Most of my blocks, which are all modern pinned, have been bought secondhand. I’ve probably paid on average £30 for the smaller stuff and about £90 for the big blocks. It’s taken time and patience, but when you compare that to anything other than straight fluted router bits, I’d say it was cheaper to tool up with a spindle. A 40mm euro cutter and limiter set is c£20 with replacement cutters around £10~£12.

 

[Spectric]

Also something else that @deema mentioned a while back is that you can get custom cutters for not a lot of money, when you think a large router cutter for a moulding can average at least £50 upwards then having this option is great, especially if you need to match a profile.

 

[Jacob]

Also something else that @deema mentioned a while back is that you can get custom cutters for not a lot of money, when you think a large router cutter for a moulding can average at least £50 upwards then having this option is great, especially if you need to match a profile.

You can make your own from HSS steel blanks. Ends up much cheaper than router tooling and can be made to match, adjusted, fine tuned, to suit.
I've got one rebate block and one wobble saw for slots, but otherwise everything else hand ground cutters or cheapo job lots from ebay.

 

[Doug B]

Also something else that @deema mentioned a while back is that you can get custom cutters for not a lot of money, when you think a large router cutter for a moulding can average at least £50 upwards then having this option is great, especially if you need to match a profile.

Where are you getting your custom cutters Roy ? The best I’ve found is a starting price of £48 which is a very basic shape for 40mm cutters & limiters, this then rises with complexity of shape & size of cutters.

As I posted in another thread I’ve just bought 3 solid carbide router bits, albeit from China, for under £10 for the 3. Router tooling can now be cheap as chips.
I certainly don’t buy into the fallacy that spindle tooling is somehow cheaper, I have a lot of spindle tooling & it has cost a great deal more than the router tooling I’ve bought, in part that is because as I stated earlier I use the spindle for bigger machining so the cutters & blocks are far bigger but for smaller tasks router cutters win hands down in the price stakes.