Advice concerning chisels

[Corneel]

That's a bit charged of course. As long as Mike finds customers with the money, that's fine, for him.

Doesn't mean it's the same for everyone, or something everybody should strive for.

 

[charvercarver]

How? If I stop at the baseline, how might overcutting be an advantage? Or is it just quicker not to worry about trying to stop at the baseline too much. That is not the same as overcutting on purpose as a matter of course. Like I said, the craftsmen were quick and could get away with the odd mishap. Speed to get the job done and get paid, lead to errors. Especially, someone explain how overcutting can help clear the waste with a fat sided chisel. And how this possibly infers that Victorian craftsmen had lousy chisels while tool aficionados swear by old tools.

True if you stop excactly on the baseline; as in where the kerf ends doesn't need any clean up then over cutting doesn't add anything, but that is very tricky to do. I just don't think the old guys cared that much.

This, I've not disputed this but things change. We cannot make fine things these days and expect good money for them when even the most untrained eye (often from a point of ignorance) can pick up the errors. I envy the old makers to a point ( I wouldn't like the work conditions) the drawers I have are very good indeed and the dovetails are almost as good as I had to do. I bet the maker took half the time to do them, though. Then again, I've seen as close to perfection as could be. I would rather aim high.

Mike.

I think this where we diverge, I don't regard the over cuts as errors as such. I think they are, or were, accepted as part of the aesthetic. Just as today we accept ugly draw and cupboard fixings, though I wouldn't call over cuts ugly as such, they do contrast with the care that was taken over the visible surfaces.

 

[Jacob]

......
This masterpiece was kind of an eyeopener for me. Nobody would argue this isn't a fine ship. And it was very succesfull too, being the flagship of the Duthc navy in the second Dutch-English war (1666). I'm sure you could find some overlong sawcuts if you look close enough. Really impressing is how fast they build this ship, it was completed in 7 months. SEVEN! At the same time 3 other similar ships were being build on the same warf in Rotterdam.

7 months! Would have been quicker if they'd had a complete set of matching chisels and a Veritas honing jig?
Talking of untidy Dutch work - that Van Gogh never finished anything properly either. Look at this messy brush work. And appalling furniture made by idiots.
If only he had had a camera and could have afforded to stay in a decent hotel!

 

[Carl P]

Interesting parallel with music here, a friend of mine once said in a discussion about music 'you know, we all strive to be more in tune and more in time, obviously that's got to be right, and yet that's not where the music is.' I believe the same is true here, perfectly executed woodwork can be soulless, or it can be part of the overall beauty and characterful design, less rigorous work (for want of a better phrase) can be full of character, or just sloppy/bad, quite how to define this I don't know, maybe post some links to examples?

Cheerio,

Carl

 

[woodbrains]

I think this where we diverge, I don't regard the over cuts as errors as such. I think they are, or were, accepted as part of the aesthetic. Just as today we accept ugly draw and cupboard fixings, though I wouldn't call over cuts ugly as such, they do contrast with the care that was taken over the visible surfaces.

Hello,

I don't think we do diverge. I wrote 'error' to mean 'unintentional'. I was not having a go at the old craftsmen who did good honest work. But sawing past a line is not a prescribed method, either, which was all I was trying to get across. The Victorisn dresser I was referring to has dovetails with the odd overcut. I love the thing, it was done by very good craftsmen indeed. But there is a fine line between leaving the honest mark of the maker and being a bit rough. This is often a matter of opinion and taste, but you have to be honest about it. You cannot falsely imbue some old time charm to a pile of poorly made firewood, just because it is old, nor do you have to start making something over, if there is an honest mistake in an otherwise top notch job. Krenov was brought up again here, about his idea of leaving tool marks as a sign of the maker. This is true, but he never encouraged sloppiness either. I don't remember ever seeing overcutting on any of his dovetails, even when he was old and past doing his best work. But this is where it is down to personal judgement. Seeing the slightly scalloped and burnished marks left by a sharp hand plane is the sign of a craftsman. Leaving tear out (IMO) is sloppy. Perhaps one or two overcuts is acceptable. But 10 on one drawer, coupled with gappy shoulders on mortice and tenons, and some tear out on the top, cannot be viewed as a bit of charm. Cumulatively lots of little thing add up to sloppiness.

Perhaps I am wrong, but the market for fine furniture doesn't seem to tolerate visual defects as perhaps it once did. And if there are craftsmen who are capable of not overcutting their dovetails, the market realises this, and it is not easy to persuade the customer that it is part of the charm. They don't see it.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Yawn. He's unstoppable!!!
How are sales at the moment BTW?
Hate to tell you but you couldn't be wronger. There is a huge market for all manner of rubbish and non rubbish, including bog standard trad made design and construction warts and all.
The market for expensive, perfectionist Arts n Crafts oddities is, and always has been, vanishingly small.

And what is this "charm" nonsense? What on earth do you mean?

 

[woodbrains]

Yawn. He's unstoppable!!!
How are sales at the moment BTW?

Hello,

Not selling anything at the moment, having time out doing other stuff, might be permanent. You don't seem to realise that I started wanting to make honest, less fussy stuff, but you simply cannot make enough of it to sell it to the market that wants it and make any money. So you make it better and try to charge a bit more, eventually you make it so good that it will realise the price you need to earn, but the market is now very small indeed. I don't expect you to believe me, since you immediately want to contradict me , rather than perhaps understand what I say and maybe offer a sensible solution, but making one off furniture is tough. Look at oak furniture emporium type stuff. Could you make something to compete with those prices? I'm sure you could design better stuff and make it better, but not for the same prices, even if you did accept some makers charm, to expedite the process. So how do you sell that for more; what added value can you persuade the customer your stuff has than oak emporium doesn't. If you have a solution, then, without the usual extraction of water, let me know.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

..... but making one off furniture is tough. Look at oak furniture emporium type stuff. .....

There is a huge middle ground. Making one offs is pointless. If it's any good why not make 5 or 10 at a time? No need to compromise on quality - in fact it improves with longer runs as problems get sorted. Perhaps modify your designs very slightly to suit a particular client (table sizes etc) but otherwise no compromise - you make what you want but in batches.
The main thing is that costs go down and productivity goes up enormously as you scale up, even slightly. Everything gets easier.

Not quite the same - but even the top most chefs don't do one offs. They cobble together a menu and you take it or leave it.

And one of the strengths of batch making is that you can make low cost items viably - by making them in large batches, 10s, 100s even. Think of currant buns!

 

[woodbrains]

..... but making one off furniture is tough. Look at oak furniture emporium type stuff. .....

There is a huge middle ground. Making one offs is pointless. If it's any good why not make 5 or 10 at a time? No need to compromise on quality - in fact it improves with longer runs as problems get sorted. Perhaps modify your designs very slightly to suit a particular client (table sizes etc) but otherwise no compromise - you make what you want but in batches.
The main thing is that costs go down and productivity goes up enormously as you scale up, even slightly. Everything gets easier.

Not quite the same - but even the top most chefs don't do one offs. They cobble together a menu and you take it or leave it.

And one of the strengths of batch making is that you can make low cost items viably - by making them in large batches, 10s, 100s even. Think of currant buns!

Hello,

This is nothing but good sense, I totally agree. I did do some batches of small items like boxes, mirrors and lamps. Some from each of the batches sold like hot cakes. But passing trade was thin at my workshop, so I had to sell through shops. And of course shop mark up meant slim profits. Once the shops sold as many as they were going to, I ended up with a storage problem. Not so bad with small items, but I'd hate to batch produce large items, as I'd soon outgrow the workshop. Getting all the clients up front and then making the batch is a way some do it, I can't say how hard it is to get all the ducks in alignment, and in what time frame, so the waiting customers don't get tired of waiting.

Perhaps when I get my shed up and running, I will batch produce a range of something, so if I do venture to try again, I can hit the ground running.

Thanks for your advice, I appreciate it.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Maybe you have to put the artist/craftsman idea on hold and work out how to earn from a small space*, or how to get a larger one.
Mind you it's taken me a long time to get the space and I've still got to earn from it - or "monetize" it as the wife keeps saying. I don't know where she picks up these expressions :roll:
The artist/craftsman idea does seem to be a bit of a millstone around the neck for quite a few people.

PS * Boxes - everybody loves them and there are infinite possibilities. I'll tell the wife!

 

[AndyT]

Whisper it quietly but isn't it nice to see Jacob and Woodbrains agreeing with each other!

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Whisper it quietly but isn't it nice to see Jacob and Woodbrains agreeing with each other!

It is, because I was beginning to wonder if the circular bickering was ever going to end. And I'm also somewhat surprised to see that (apparently) all these busy woodworkers in this thread, and a few others I suppose, seem to have so much free time that they can ponce around for most of the day typing long and verbose ripostes to each other! I have to reserve most of my poncing around on woodworking forums and the like for evenings and weekends, i.e., when I've finished work for the day or week. Slainte.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I've seen some of your furniture, Richard. I don't recall seeing any overcutting in your dovetails, you might have lent a hand defending the high end makers point of view, I was getting a bit lonely defending it by myself (hammer) . Some thoughts on how we might sell our stuff without starving would be nice, too.


Jacob, I worked hard and got my space, but perhaps you are having better luck monetizing it than I. =D> if I can get some stuff together from my small space, I might give it another go, with a fresh approach. I might just have to carry on with my new job and make things for myself as and when. Being employed takes up so much time, there is possibly too little left for a new venture. We'll see how it pans out.

Mike.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Hello, I've seen some of your furniture, Richard. I don't recall seeing any overcutting in your dovetails, you might have lent a hand defending the high end makers point of view, I was getting a bit lonely defending it by myself (hammer) . Some thoughts on how we might sell our stuff without starving would be nice, too. Mike.

Mike, I don't need to overcut because I'm bloody good, and quick, ha, ha.

I learnt long ago to merely be an observer in pointless and pathetic nit-picking bickerfests, such as this thread. Participating in them is an exercise in frustration and time wasting, so they're generally best left alone to pickle in their own bilious stew. Some arguments are unwinnable, even if you know you're right and can prove it.

Meanwhile, I need to get away and do some real work for the rest of the day instead fooling around here. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

.....

Jacob, I worked hard and got my space, but perhaps you are having better luck monetizing it than I. =D> if I can get some stuff together from my small space, I might give it another go, with a fresh approach. I might just have to carry on with my new job and make things for myself as and when. Being employed takes up so much time, there is possibly too little left for a new venture. We'll see how it pans out.

Mike.

Fresh approach might be to recognise that "high end" is only one of many possible ways.
Another parallel with music might be those who imagine that if their piano lessons aren't going to get them to the Albert Hall they might as well stop altogether. But they then miss the incredible richness of all the other possible genres and alternative ways of being involved - other ways, which aren't "inferior" at all.
Right I'm off to do some work now! Bit late but it is Friday.

 

[Carl P]

Bang on with the musical parallel Jacob, as my many gigs at weddings, restaurants, dodgy venues with dubious combo's will attest, of course I'd like to think I've maintained my artistic credibility, but...

Cheerio,

Carl

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Ha Ha

I'll become a wood busker :wink:

Mike.

 

[Carl P]

Hi Mike,

Just remember, you need a dog with a grubby, slightly gaudy bandana, preferably sporting a tinkly bell aswell, also should look a little thin, even though there are a few regular sweet old ladies who always buy dogfood for him (not too concerned about the busker though!) and don't forget, we haven't reached October yet, but you need to brush up on all those Christmas favourites - you may be above that sort of thing, but it's the corny sh*te that gets the punters to part with their dosh!

Cheerio,


Carl

 

[Jacob]

Nicely made wooden sledges go down well as Christmas approaches.

 

[iNewbie]

Not sure I could eat a whole one, though...