Advice concerning chisels

[woodbrains]

Hello,

WOW! Some of you people are so good at writing tommy rot, you are actually suceeding in deluding yourselves. Over cutting is a result of speed, pure and simple. The baseline was aimed for as you should, but speed resulted in some error. That is all. It has nothing to do with some myth that it was done on purpose to facilitate the waste removal. Better craftsmen over cut less, some absolutely awful stuff done by less able wood butchers had lots of overcuts. If some think there is some sort of honesty in rough and ready, couldn't care less made stuff then, that is their preference. But let us not start pretending that that was some sort of standard and somehow craftsmen who want to do neat, accurate work are being all unnecessary.

Another thing, if over cutting was method and not error, absolutely every side of every single pin socket would be overcuts. But they are not, there is evidence of random, here and there over cutting, which is indicative of pilot error, not intent. Surprisingly, on the cabinet I am examining presently, there are more overcuts on the dovetails than on the tail sockets. In fact there are surprisingly few there. There is no advantage in over cutting tails for waste removal, only on the pins, so it would be the other way around, unless it was just error. If you think about it, without the confirmation bias that seems to be endemic here at the moment, there would be less over cutting on the pins, since there are 2 baselines to aim for, so more concentration and a little less speed would be used, hence more accuracy and less over-cutting. In fact, common dovetails should have no overcutting at all, since this will not help waste removal on either tail or socket board, but there are. It is pilot error, pure and simple. ( or bad workmanship )

Mike.

 

[charvercarver]

Woodbrains:

If the over cutting was pure error I'm not sure just speed would account for it. It seems unlikely that so many over cut examples exist just through mistakes, after all it isn't that difficult to not over cut and joiners of that period would certainly have been very experienced with a saw.

I think it is more likely like the practice of undercutting tenons on the unseen side, if you couldn't see it they were only really concerned with structural strength, not appearance.

 

[MIGNAL]

So Woodbrains, does the 'rough and ready' apply to Mr.Krenov and his 'hacked out, rough as old boots' Planes? or was he just deluding himself - and a lot of woodworky folk, going by the number who bought them. By your definition that would make him dishonest.
Oh dear!!

 

[Trafalgar]

Hello,

WOW! Some of you people are so good at writing tommy rot, you are actually suceeding in deluding yourselves. Over cutting is a result of speed, pure and simple. The baseline was aimed for as you should, but speed resulted in some error. That is all. It has nothing to do with some myth that it was done on purpose to facilitate the waste removal. Better craftsmen over cut less, some absolutely awful stuff done by less able wood butchers had lots of overcuts. If some think there is some sort of honesty in rough and ready, couldn't care less made stuff then, that is their preference. But let us not start pretending that that was some sort of standard and somehow craftsmen who want to do neat, accurate work are being all unnecessary.

Another thing, if over cutting was method and not error, absolutely every side of every single pin socket would be overcuts. But they are not, there is evidence of random, here and there over cutting, which is indicative of pilot error, not intent. Surprisingly, on the cabinet I am examining presently, there are more overcuts on the dovetails than on the tail sockets. In fact there are surprisingly few there. There is no advantage in over cutting tails for waste removal, only on the pins, so it would be the other way around, unless it was just error. If you think about it, without the confirmation bias that seems to be endemic here at the moment, there would be less over cutting on the pins, since there are 2 baselines to aim for, so more concentration and a little less speed would be used, hence more accuracy and less over-cutting. In fact, common dovetails should have no overcutting at all, since this will not help waste removal on either tail or socket board, but there are. It is pilot error, pure and simple. ( or bad workmanship )

Mike.

People afraid of the baseline spend a lot of time cleaning up the juncture at the base of every pin and tail left by removal of the waste. Nobody is aiming at a consistent overcut, but more a 'complete' cut that descends all the way to the bottom of the incised baseline in order to mimimize a lot of tedious chisel-work cleaning up cuts that fell short of where they should have (again, on pins AND tails). The result is an occassional overcut (slightly through the incised baseline), even by excellent craftsmen.

I don't think delusion, endemic confirmation bias, etc has anything to do with it.

 

[iNewbie]

I'm not sure why some people/woodworkers have a hang-up on someone owning/using a nice high-end tool V a romantic de-rusted old'un or, why seeking to make your hand made work as unflawed as it possibly can be makes you the devils-spore and CNC = cold and soulless. But it has me asking: why do they care.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

In fact let's rewind a bit. Overcutting will not help remove the waste any easier, whether with a good chisel or a bad one, in any case. So the argument is moot anyhow. Some people could cut down to the baseline consistently well others could not. Speed, lack of light, lack of practiced skill, whatever, these are the reasons for overcutting. Easing the waste out is fallacious.

The Krenov plane thing has no bearing on anything other than Krenov's planes. What he did cannot prove or disprove what another craftsman, from another era, with other expedients and pressures, did and for what reason. In any case, Krenov did not make planes to sell. He made planes to use himself and gave some away to someone he thought nice. The few he made ( and some people bought) towards the end of his life, he made when he was actually almost totally blind and could no longer make furniture. They were more autographs than tools at that point, for people who wanted a memory of the man.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

.....Overcutting will not help remove the waste any easier, .....

Yes it will. Ideally the over-cut would just nick the gauge line but this is quite difficult to do and simpler to allow a slight over cut - as little as possible of course. I don't know why you keep needing to have this explained it's glaringly obvious.
Now you've started, keep on looking at furniture - you may learn something!
What about old Jim's blarny about tool marks, no sanding etc? Is there a book of rules with some things allowed and others not?

 

[G S Haydon]

Hi Everyone,

Unusually, thanks to good luck with carboot/ebay, I am in the rather odd position of not only having a chisel that's the right width, but also the possibility of being either bevel edged or straight sided. So the question is, straight or bevel edged for firmers - what are the advantages/disadvantages, and when does a bevel edged chisel become a dovetail chisel?

At the moment I have no intention of getting any mortice chisels, so I'm thinking of keeping straight sided firmers and dovetail chisels as a good compromise for small mortices, general hacking and fiddly stuff.

Any advice gratefully received,

Cheerio,

Carl

If your still here Carl I think we can agree :lol: on the following

Both a Beveled Firmer & a Straight Firmer make very good general purpose tools. As much as anything its what an individual is used too.

A beveled edge becomes a dovetail chisel when there is virtually no land.

Your choice of straight sided firmers and dovetail chisels will serve you very well indeed.

 

[MIGNAL]

oh right Woodbrains. In other words it was fine for Krenov to hack out rough old Planes (complete with rough, knobbly bits) but in the case of other woodworkers doing something similar it becomes dishonest and 'woodbutchers'. You couldn't buy his Planes but he was selling his 'autograph'. I do believe that the autograph was around $300 US a number of years ago
What a load of jumped up, self righteous bllshit. Typical of an artsy woodworker! Have you an artists statement to go along with the knobbly Planes?

 

[Trafalgar]

I'm not sure why some people/woodworkers have a hang-up on someone owning/using a nice high-end tool V a romantic de-rusted old'un or, why seeking to make your hand made work as unflawed as it possibly can be makes you the devils-spore and CNC = cold and soulless. But it has me asking: why do they care.

Don't confuse posting opinions on a forum with the notion of "caring."

 

[Trafalgar]

Hello,

In fact let's rewind a bit. Overcutting will not help remove the waste any easier, whether with a good chisel or a bad one, in any case. So the argument is moot anyhow. Some people could cut down to the baseline consistently well others could not. Speed, lack of light, lack of practiced skill, whatever, these are the reasons for overcutting. Easing the waste out is fallacious.

The Krenov plane thing has no bearing on anything other than Krenov's planes. What he did cannot prove or disprove what another craftsman, from another era, with other expedients and pressures, did and for what reason. In any case, Krenov did not make planes to sell. He made planes to use himself and gave some away to someone he thought nice. The few he made ( and some people bought) towards the end of his life, he made when he was actually almost totally blind and could no longer make furniture. They were more autographs than tools at that point, for people who wanted a memory of the man.

Mike.

Won't help? That's absurd. Go out to your shop and stop your saw cuts a half millimeter or so from the knifed line and let us know how much clean up you have to do. Nicking the far side side of the gauged line absolutely helps eliminate a whole lot of chisel work.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

No, overcutting won't help. It is an expedient to prevent an undercut. But cutting to the line in no less effective than overcutting and much neater.

Jacob is contending some other nonsense entirely, than an overcut can somehow make up for having a chisel that is too fat to remove the waste right into the corners, which is total bunkham as well.

Don't forget, I still have the Victorian dressing table with only the occasional overcut in all the 13 drawers. The only explanation is 'unintentional' or they all would be like that, or all not.

I am really impressed with the real reason for the arguments put forward, though. Finding imperfect work from the past to justify ones own imperfect work. Blaming CNC for not being able to get away with mistakes and flaws, these days. Decrying an old blind mans work, who isn't around to defend himself, and sold a few things after he was past his best, based on his fame more than the object itself. As if that proves anything! I suppose it is much easier to bitch and make excuses than to improve, though.

Mike.

 

[charvercarver]

Woodbrains:

I'd agree with the others that over cutting helps, cleaning out the waste from the junction between the sloped parts and the square parts is much easier with an over cut.

I think the simple fact that so many over cuts are seen shows that unseen neat joinery wasn't a critical issue for the joiners of old, that being the case why wouldn't they over cut? These days hand cut joinery is a selling point, so it makes sense to chisel out all the waste. In the old days the joinery wasn't much of a factor, after all modern draw fastening isn't very attractive, but no one much minds. See also adjustable hinges.

 

[MIGNAL]

No Woodbrains, krenov isn't around to defend himself. Neither are the 'dishonest woodbutchers'.
Then again you obviously missed my point entirely. I wasn't decrying his work. I rather like a bit of texture in wood. It has a more interesting feel than over fussed, over sanded stuff. In fact I quite like the odd tool mark, the inlay that wiggles a little. Perhaps that was why Krenov did his knobbly planes: 'good enough', 'functional'. Probably the same reason why the dishonest woodbutchers did their type of work.
We'll leave perfection to yourself.

 

[woodbrains]

Woodbrains:

I'd agree with the others that over cutting helps, cleaning out the waste from the junction between the sloped parts and the square parts is much easier with an over cut.

How? If I stop at the baseline, how might overcutting be an advantage? Or is it just quicker not to worry about trying to stop at the baseline too much. That is not the same as overcutting on purpose as a matter of course. Like I said, the craftsmen were quick and could get away with the odd mishap. Speed to get the job done and get paid, lead to errors. Especially, someone explain how overcutting can help clear the waste with a fat sided chisel. And how this possibly infers that Victorian craftsmen had lousy chisels while tool aficionados swear by old tools.

I think the simple fact that so many over cuts are seen shows that unseen neat joinery wasn't a critical issue for the joiners of old, that being the case why wouldn't they over cut? These days hand cut joinery is a selling point, so it makes sense to chisel out all the waste. In the old days the joinery wasn't much of a factor,

This, I've not disputed this but things change. We cannot make fine things these days and expect good money for them when even the most untrained eye (often from a point of ignorance) can pick up the errors. I envy the old makers to a point ( I wouldn't like the work conditions) the drawers I have are very good indeed and the dovetails are almost as good as I had to do. I bet the maker took half the time to do them, though. Then again, I've seen as close to perfection as could be. I would rather aim high.

Mike.

 

[Corneel]

When you are not fretting over such details, you could half the building time and thus half the price. So you can reach more people. Of course you would have to educate your customers what handwork really is.

I object to the notion that overcut dovetails are "sloppy".

 

[iNewbie]

When you are not fretting over such details, you could half the building time and thus half the price. So you can reach more people. Of course you would have to educate your customers what handwork really is.

I object to the notion that overcut dovetails are "sloppy".

Why should some people do that, though - half the time and price. Why does someone need to reach more people?

Everyone works to their own standards as is their choice. If good enough is good enough thats fine, but for people to get upset because others seek to push themselves to what they define as perfection -in how they build/work, who am I to judge. There's snobbery on both sides imho. I don't see things in Black and White - I'll sit in the grey area and wonder.... WTF.

 

[Jacob]

The odd thing is about woodbrains perfectionism is that even his guru (St Jim RIP) argues against it.
I first became aware if the argument many years ago when I fancied being a luthier and started making a lute (mostly from a kit I confess). The hardest bit was carving the sound hole. I chanced upon some very valuable notes from (edited - probably Stefan Gottleib) along the lines of avoid over working, sandpaper, scraping, a few chisel marks will be fine and keep it looking fresh etc
Then at woodwork shows one thing often noticeable is the over-fine finish of amateur work - backs and undersides all polished and every sign of hand tool work removed, arrises rounded over etc.
It's not that tool marks are desirable in themselves but neither is the over worked effect. It's a compromise and time is a big factor - is it worth the extra effort or would it be better to attend to some other details?
But then it's quite nice seeing evidence of the human touch.

 

[Corneel]

Why should some people do that, though - half the time and price. Why does someone need to reach more people?

Everyone works to their own standards as is their choice. If good enough is good enough thats fine, but for people to get upset because others seek to push themselves to what they define as perfection -in how they build/work, who am I to judge. There's snobbery on both sides imho. I don't see things in Black and White - I'll sit in the grey area and wonder.... WTF.

Sure, everybody should do what they feel happy with! And what brings bread on the table.

That doesn't change that striving for machine perfection with handtools is a dead end street. First we had to compete with the Leigh jig and succeeded. Then came the CNC routers. Next is the 3D printers. All the time while striving for absolute perfection we loose sight of the true value of handtool work. The connection with our human being. The visibility of the craftsman in the end result.

This masterpiece was kind of an eyeopener for me. Nobody would argue this isn't a fine ship. And it was very succesfull too, being the flagship of the Duthc navy in the second Dutch-English war (1666). I'm sure you could find some overlong sawcuts if you look close enough. Really impressing is how fast they build this ship, it was completed in 7 months. SEVEN! At the same time 3 other similar ships were being build on the same warf in Rotterdam.

 

[MIGNAL]

What people like Woodbrains need are a very high quality CNC machine, along with a high quality industrial sander. Then a finishing robot.
In fact the less that the human comes into contact with the work, the better. If you can't find an automated machine that is up to the task: build a better automated machine. There lies the path of the 'perfect' object. Using hand tools, the sensible limits of a working professional and you haven't got a hope.