Advice concerning chisels

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woodbrains":1nf2dnlv said:
....There is a lot of over cutting in it, but by no means on all the dovetails, or even a majority of them.
If you look more closely you would find they all are, but on carefully done work you would hardly notice. It only has to be a gnat's thingy to work. Not doing it just makes for more work and would be indicate inexperience if not found.
It certainly wasn't done to make chiseling the waste easier,
Yes it was, and also to make the sawing easier of course. If you are having to chisel out the corners of pin holes basically you dunnit wrong!
Skewing a chisel with heavy lands, in a half blind socket does not really work. The opposite corner of the chisel contacts the back of the socket before the corner we are trying to clear gets close. If chisels with heavy lands are all you have, a pair of skew chisels will be needed to get into the corners. .....
In actual practice it's head-down-brain-off and you get it done. If it's the "wrong" chisel it might not be tidy but nobody will know after it's all been glued together.
 
Hello,

Just had an good look at the drawers. I was actually being a bit harsh, there are several over cuts, but considering the total number of dovetails, not too bad, probably about 10% or so. The saw kerf is quite thin, too. The maker must have had a very good quality saw. Sorry I just don't believe that over cutting was intentional on cabinet work. I have read no text other than explaining that sawing should stop at the baseline and seen no evidence in good antiques. Poorer quality, rough and ready lash ups, perhaps, ( though I still doubt it, less able craftsmen produced inferior work, with all manner of errors) but I am not concerned about those.

Mike.
 
woodbrains":1iaas23h said:
..... I have read no text other than explaining that sawing should stop at the baseline and seen no evidence in good antiques. Poorer quality, rough and ready lash ups, perhaps, ....
You'd learn more if you looked at woodwork rather than texts.
In good quality work it's done very carefully so that not even you would notice! :lol:
It's such an easy and obvious little trick that to not do it would be simply stupid.
 
Jacob":wb0oat89 said:
In good quality work it's done very carefully so that not even you would notice! :lol:
.

Hello,

In good work, it is done so carefully that they are not even there!

Mike.
 
Completely right of course. But one wonders, why do Stanley, Bahco etc grind side bevels on their chisels, if it doesn't serve any purpose? They could save some costs, making straight sided firmers. I think it has alot to do with how the tool looks like. Carpenters, joiners and DIY-ers are nowadays used to the bevel edge look, so they won't buy a square one? Somewhere along the way, the bevel edged chisel became the norm and now they are always made like that.[/quote]

AndyT":6psblsmr said:
I don't want to go over old ground about grades of steel, but somewhere in all this is the difference between old steel and new.

Go back a century to when 'cast steel' was the norm. If you wanted an all-round chisel you needed something relatively thick - so you bought a square edged chisel. If you needed something lighter and more delicate you bought one where quite a lot of the steel had been forged or ground away - a bevel edged chisel. But you could not expect to take a heavy cut with it - you'd risk snapping the fairly brittle chisel.

Modern chisels are made of steel which is much tougher, so less likely to snap. You can have something strong enough to use as a general purpose chisel even if the edges have been ground back a bit. Overall, the thickness is a bit more than an old, delicate bevel edge, but almost all of the time the extra thickness won't be a problem. So we get true general purpose chisels tough enough to chop a big rebate but usable for common dovetails as well. Some people even chop mortices with them.

The only time I can think of that you really need a fine land on your bevel edged chisel is when you are cutting really skinny dovetails (as found on old drawer sides) where the chisel is the same width as the cut, so must cut right into the corners without being held at an angle.

I think I find common ground here. Like many things it's what you are used to. I find as a general purpose tool they work just fine. I have never craved an old school firmer yet. I find the beveled simply work. I have not had the time to buy firmers, and contrast them and I don't feel the need to. Stanley, Bacho, Faithfull, et al please carry on doing what your doing. They are very good tools for the job they were intended for.
 
Have to say most old dovetails I've seen have been over cut, I think they were regarded simply as efficent joinery back in the day. Anything that wasn't on display was not fussed over that much.
 
charvercarver":3hpf0lmd said:
Have to say most old dovetails I've seen have been over cut, I think they were regarded simply as efficent joinery back in the day. Anything that wasn't on display was not fussed over that much.
Agree.
woodbrains":3hpf0lmd said:
Hello,

Just had an good look at the drawers......
One thing that's come out of this thread is that Mike has started looking at his own furniture - apparently for the first time!
I'd say that anyone who claims to be interested in woodwork hasn't really begun until they've started looking at the stuff around them, taken out every drawer, crawled underneath, turned them around, up side down, shone a torch across a surface to see tool marks, etc.
Cheap furniture is rewarding as there is more evidence left; on expensive stuff the joiner has usually made more effort to cover his tracks.
Old and new - e.g. IKEA is good on design and economical construction.
The texts are just the tip of an enormous iceberg. There's masses of information out there.

Well done woodbrains - better late than never!
 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mark_firley/sets/72157635404664767/

Here you can see pictures of over 400 dovetailed drawers and cases. It's a bit hard to see in a picture of course, but a lot of them are very obviously overcut, especially the drawers, but even in cases and chests where the dovetails are in plain view you can witness overcutting.

I've looked around in my own house. My antique furniture is very modest, mostly pine cabinets, so probably not a very definitive reference. But, all the dovetails are overcut.

When something isn't mentioned in period book texts, it doesn't say it wasn't common trade practice. The books present the ideal case, how a teacher would learn it to his boys.
 
Brilliant set of photos!
Even if you can't see an overcut you can be sure that nearly all of them will at least have the corner nicked by the saw to avoid having to clean up with a chisel. And similarly with other sawn joints. It's how it's done.
 
So we have to carry on doing things badly because that's how its always been done?
Do we still burn witches? and have rickets or the Derbyshire neck?

I would like to make my dovetails then best I can so I made my self one of these


Now I can get into the corners and remove the once difficult bits.

Pete
 
Jacob":3q91afgf said:
Cheap furniture is rewarding as there is more evidence left; on expensive stuff the joiner has usually made more effort to cover his tracks.

At times you write the strangest stuff, Jacob.
 
Pete Maddex":2omhmjmp said:
So we have to carry on doing things badly because that's how its always been done?
Do we still burn witches? and have rickets or the Derbyshire neck?

I guess it depends on the context. When you're a hobbyist you can do whatever you fancy. A professional, working at a fixed price, might look a bit different at this. At the other hand, there are not many professionals working under such time constrains with handtools anymore.
 
iNewbie":153f3v47 said:
Jacob":153f3v47 said:
Cheap furniture is rewarding as there is more evidence left; on expensive stuff the joiner has usually made more effort to cover his tracks.

At times you write the strangest stuff, Jacob.
Think about it. It's not so strange.
Pete Maddex":153f3v47 said:
So we have to carry on doing things badly because that's how its always been done?
Do we still burn witches? and have rickets or the Derbyshire neck?
You can do things how you like.
But if you want to be quick and efficient with hand tools it's not a bad idea to take note of how the experts did things. Some things from the past are well worth taking note of (e.g. hand tool techniques) others best left behind (Derbyshire neck).
 
G S Haydon":1n17d9xo said:
..... I have never craved an old school firmer yet. I find the beveled simply work. I have not had the time to buy firmers, and contrast them and I don't feel the need to. ....

I am not a chisel enthusiast like some people are but I have recently had to use my chisels for some deep mortices that my router is not suitable for. I wasn't aware until recently what different shaped chisels were for and it's threads such as this that are educating me. So thanks chaps.

My chisels are mostly old school firmers, from my old school actually - really, my Dad attended the tool sale for me when they closed the woodwork rooms before they demolished and rebuilt the school. I use these chisels for most things though my chiselling work isn't very extensive. I do own a couple of bevel edge chisels but to be honest I like the weight of the firmers.
 
Jacob":yfvizpnu said:
iNewbie":yfvizpnu said:
Jacob":yfvizpnu said:
Cheap furniture is rewarding as there is more evidence left; on expensive stuff the joiner has usually made more effort to cover his tracks.

At times you write the strangest stuff, Jacob.
Think about it. It's not so strange.
Pete Maddex":yfvizpnu said:
So we have to carry on doing things badly because that's how its always been done?
Do we still burn witches? and have rickets or the Derbyshire neck?
You can do things how you like.
But if you want to be quick and efficient with hand tools it's not a bad idea to take note of how the experts did things. Some things from the past are well worth taking note of (e.g. hand tool techniques) others best left behind (Derbyshire neck).

Experts over cut do they? more like they would get a bollocking for being slow so did every thing fast so quality suffered, I believe its a great insult to a Japanese wood worker to be called slow.

I like the idea of being quick and efficient with hand tools but also doing something i can be proud of, over cutting isn't one.

Pete
 
Something weird has happened. Somehow it is now sacrilage to show some honest handtool marks. We are so much used to machined perfection, anything less precise then a CNC machined piece of MDF with a sprayed gloss paint is looked down upon. The fact that the piece falls apart in 10 years time, or is out of fashion in half the time, is less important.

I'm exagerating of course. But apart from the perfect dovetail, there are other things to be proud about. A well designed piece for example. That's what buyers two centuries ago would look for. Not if the drawer dovetails were machine like executed. A little bit of tearout, or jack plane tracks inside a chest, noone would critique a piece for such work. For a cabinet maker at that time it was also a matter of being able to produce nice work in a timely fashion. That's something to be proud of too.
 
Everyone is so accustomed to products made on an industrial basis. It's as though the eye has been trained to look for the minor imperfection. Craftsmen are now 'chasing the laser' as someone succinctly put it. There's not a lot of beauty in perfection and if there is you quickly tire of it. It just doesn't have enough 'noise' to hold the attention. I'm fond of giving the Steinway Piano finish as a prime example: perfectly flat and perfectly glossy. Perfect and incredibly impressive on first sight. It holds the attention for a few seconds. It becomes very cold looking and boring within seconds. How to turn a warm looking material (wood) into a cold looking one that resembles plastic or glass.
 
Corneel":qpickn3a said:
Something weird has happened. Somehow it is now sacrilage to show some honest handtool marks. We are so much used to machined perfection, anything less precise then a CNC machined piece of MDF with a sprayed gloss paint is looked down upon. The fact that the piece falls apart in 10 years time, or is out of fashion in half the time, is less important.

I'm exagerating of course. But apart from the perfect dovetail, there are other things to be proud about. A well designed piece for example. That's what buyers two centuries ago would look for. Not if the drawer dovetails were machine like executed. A little bit of tearout, or jack plane tracks inside a chest, noone would critique a piece for such work. For a cabinet maker at that time it was also a matter of being able to produce nice work in a timely fashion. That's something to be proud of too.

Well said. One certainly doesn't have to look hard for examples of flawless dovetails applied to designs of rectilinear box projects I'd be reluctant to bury a deceased stray dog in. Fugly comes to mind, but oh, look at the dovetails. A British fellow recently made a blog post showing some quickly made chests using clinched nails that frankly have more warmth and soul and are much more inviting than some recent ill-proportioned and sterile works I've seen with overwrought hand-cut dovetails.

Art imitates life, or vice-versa, or art imitates the Leigh jig. Not sure which of the three....
 
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