A question for the luthiers out there....

[Kalimna]

Greetings folks,
Despite the fact that I havent quite finished either of my current guitar projects (the padauk electric, due for an update, and the relatively straightforward acoustic), I am mentally trying to plan my next two.
Essentially, what I want to do is to build an electric and an acoustic guitar out of only UK woods, preferably Scottish, to be as local as possible. For the electric, it shouldnt be a problem, but I have something of a sticking point for the acoustic, namely the soundboard. Fretboard, back/sides, neck, body (electric) all sorted.

So, can anyone suggest a suitable UK timber that I may be able to use as a soundboard? And also, where I may be able to locate the timber to purchase.
A bit of a tall order, but I'm hopeful

Cheers,
Adam

 

[richarnold]

Hi Andy. I have been thinking along the same lines myself. I have been reading that you can use redwood for the front. I presume they are talking about what we refer to in the uk as Scotts pine. Some locally grown stuff from your neck of the woods might be suitable. I suppose it's just a case of finding someone with some nice quarter sawn planks. I was thinking of using walnut for the back and ribs. It might be ok for the neck as well. A lot of early baroque instruments had Maple fingerboards, so I can't see why it wouldn't work for a guitar. Most italian violins used willow for the linings so I think this would be OK .
Cheers, Richard.

 

[Kalimna]

Hi Richard,
Yes, scots pine had also crossed my mind. As you say, the issue is getting nice tight-grained QS boards. Not so essential for back and sides, but certainly for the top were cross-grain stiffness seems to be important.
I have some lovely laburnum boards that will make nice back and sides (and fingerboards), even if they become 4-piece backs. Birch/sycamore/(walnut and hornbeam if I can get it) for the necks and body (electric). Lime for the linings (or willow as you say) should do fine. Maple would also work for the fingerboard (worked nicely for Fender, though I'm not sure UK grown is the same species)....
Hmmmm, we shall see.

Cheers,
Adam

 

[treds1]

I'm currently starting an acoustic build using native timbers as much as possible, though have given in and gone for Euro spruce for the soundboard. I've chosen cherry for back and sides, sycamore for neck, and bog oak for fretboard and bridge.

Would be very interested if you manage to find something suitable for the soundboard.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD

 

[Kalimna]

Bog oak is lovely - from the pictures Ive seen at least! I imagine it is a little awkward to machine, and how well does it hold in frets? (Given oaks rather coarse grain structure)

I was hoping to be able to find a suitable spruce in the UK, but not really sure where to look. I also wonder if yew might work? I know it is rather dense (and works well as a back/side choice), but it is a softwood and if machined a little thinner than normal?

Adam

 

[deserter]

Don't know the answer to this, but is big oak still as corrosive to metal as normal oak, if it is you may have problems with strings and frets.


~Nil carborundum illegitemi~

 

[treds1]

Not sure about bog oak being corrosive, I know it has been used by Brook guitars and is available to buy as fretboard blanks @ timberline (or so i have been told I sourced mine as a blank elsewhere) so fingers crossed it will be ok, i'm going to give it a try and see what happens. I guess using stainless steel frets would help!.

Yew is a possibility, you could also consider a hardwood top like walnut, think all mahogany guitar. I think the biggest issue with our native spruces is that they grow to quickly, and therefore the grain is not really tight enough to be suitable.

have a look at http://www.academia.edu/1502157/An_Envi ... ay_Beattie its somebody's thesis on using alternative woods as tonewoods is an interesting read.

 

[iNewbie]

Alan Arnold lists Douglas fir -and Walnut- on his site, here: Alan Arnold. I'd suggest emailing him for a supplier.

I wish I could recall another UK luthier who uses native woods but his name escapes me! His workmanship was astonishing. Gah!

 

[xy mosian]

Long time ago when I was much younger, I made a couple of Lutes. Sitka Spruce soundboard and Sycamore backs. I believe both of these species are available in the UK. The recognised alternative to the Sitka was Western Red Cedar, I don't know if that is regarded as 'native'. Of the two Sitka is a crisper wood to work. Possible quite a lot of Sikta in Scotland.
HTH, xy

 

[iNewbie]

Found his name - though its some of the Bodies he's making with UK woods. Not the Tops. Nice work though!

David Anthony Reid

 

[Kalimna]

Re: bog oak - I too have heard it used as fretboards. Perhaps the bog attenuates the corrosive nature of the fresh oak?

I suspect that either sitka spruce or douglas fir will be the top wood of choice if I can find a supplier of suitably slow growth stock.
I am familliar with all hardwood guitars (mahogany and koa spring to mind), but not come across a walnut one. Now, if I could find some Scottish walnut of suitable size, it might be worth a go

Re: luthier links - lots of very interesting info there. And quite a lot to digest...

Cheers,
Adam

 

[marcros]

Adam,

This chap has been helpful when i have bought a few odds and sods- i think that they do more than just turning timber.

http://www.ullapoolwoodturningcentre.co ... ge1252.htm

may be worth an enquiry to see what local felled stock he has. may be a bit of a drive though...

 

[Cegidfa]

Hello to Kalimna, and treds 1,

Gentlemen, could I persuade you to write a WIP on the 'acoustic' construction procedure?
I for one would be very interested, and I know that there are quite a number of others on this forum who share the 'guitar habit' - Mick Cheese and Silverbirch come to mind.

Regards........Dick.

 

[MIGNAL]

Bog Oak works fine for a fretboard. I have some that is virtually as Black as the best ebony but it cost just as much. Actually it may have cost more. Hard Maple will work but you have the problem of it showing the dirt and grime - which is why Fender cover theirs in plastic. Normal QS Oak will also work well although it would be nice to have it pressure dyed. Unfortunately not a safe proposition to do at home. You could dye the surface Black and glue a couple of thin strips of Black dyed Maple on the two edges. Laburnum works well also.
Back/Sides are fairly easy to obtain. Walnut, Maple and Cherry are obvious candidates. Quarter sawn Cherry is also very suitable as Neck material. I have some that is very straight grained and knot free. I wish I could get more English Cherry like it. American Cherry is fairly easy to obtain but of course that would not be local.
Your soundboard material is the most difficult to obtain. You might find some suitable Douglas Fir or Scots Pine but they tend to be on the heavy side for acoustic Guitars, which is why they are seldom used. I try to make many of my instruments from fairly locally grown woods but I'm afraid that all my soundboards originate from Canada (Lutz) and Italy (Euro Spruce).

 

[Kalimna]

Mark - Thanks for the link, I have sent them an email to see what pops up. It is a little far, but as you know, I dont mind travelling *too* much

Dick - I would love to be in the position of writing a tutorial on building an acoustc, but given that I have exactly one (and that one itself under heavy supervision/decision making) acoustic guitar under my belt, then I am not sure I am qualified! However, perhaps I shall just keep photo's aside of my current acoustic build (indian rosewood/spruce, with only the top an back plates joined at the moment) and post them all up in one go, with a brief discussion of the stages. If, however, anyone else is interested in co-operating on a construction FAQ/guide, perhaps that might be an idea? Thanks for the vote of confidence though!

Mignal - Do you think steel-wool-in-vinegar approach to dyeing oak might work well enough? I do have a B&S set of american white oak, but had not really considered it as a fretboard material (bog oak notwthstanding, of course). In your opinion, do you think I might end up wasting my time building the rest of the instrument, only to be 'let down' by a persistence in using a UK wood for the soundboard? I know that some folk (Benedetto, for instance) have built lovely guitars out of less-than-stellar wood (pine pallet timber), but they do rather have a lot of skill and experience on their side choosing exactly which piece/orientation they use, and how t get the best out of it. I, however, do not!

Cheers,
Adam

 

[iNewbie]

For some people if they don't see whats deemed as supposedly being the correct/standard material used they get bent-out-of-shape. In the LP world even what Plastic the PUP rings are made from...

This piece with Bob Taylor and Chris Martin sums it up - for me: See

The Part of The Player

 

[MIGNAL]

Steel wool and Vinegar is what I've used on an oak fretboard - I also dyed it with Indian Ink for insurance. Worked very well. I have a little 6 string Ukulele unfinished where I used the Oak. I'll get a pic of it.
Soundboard. I suspect you will have a better chance with Steel strings. With Nylon you only have a rather limited amount of energy, hence why a light (as in weight) soundboard is important. The Lutz I have is around 350Kg/M3, my Euro 390 Kg/M3.
If you can find some reasonable Fir or Pine light(ish) in weight it will probably do fine. I doubt you will get it down to Euro figures though.

 

[Kalimna]

Based on the discussion so far, and doing little more interwebby research last night, I think that my idea of a fully UK-acoustic might not work. At least until I have a lot more experience. However, there does seem to be precedent for using yew as a soundboard for ukeleles, and I wonder too if mandolins might be OK. I think that is where I shall attempt a UK instrument.

Oh, and with regards to books/WIP tutorials on building acoustic guitars, I could not possibly recommend more highly Cumpiano and Natelson's fabulous book. There are others (Benedetto - nice but very little background "this is *why* you do it this way, and assumes too much experience/understanding. Hiscock - a nice breadth of info and a wonderful writing style, but short on details I felt) for example, but none as explanatory as C&N's.

Cheers,
Adam

 

[treds1]

Kalimna that's the decision I came to when planning a native timber build, so I decided to allow myself to use a Euro Spruce soundboard, but all other materials should be locally sourced.

I am documenting this build elsewhere on the Official Luthiers Forum, but if people would like I can start a WIP here to follow the main segments. the current build thread can be found here http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10134&t=38820 I have not made much progress yet on the actual build yet, as have been building jigs etc, but should be moving along this weekend.

 

[MickCheese]

I think a WIP would be beneficial to both you and us.

I love reading how everyone overcomes issues and often that old on 'hindsight', is very useful so even if you do make mistakes it is a valuable lesson to others if that are considering the same in the future.

Good luck.

Mick