A free standing decorative piece

[Darren D Breeze]

This piece i made a few months ago, but only just photographed it, it incorporates lots of things, colour, gold enamel, carving, sorby textureing tool work, lime wax, burning, wire brushing, drilling, off centre, and a little hollowing, think i must have been bored that day, i originally cut the corner off at 45 degrees but it looked too uniform so cut a little extra slither off so it appears slightly rotated.

 

[boysie39]

Get bored more often and post your boredom pieces.
That looks a class piece to me ,
Regds. Boysie

 

[loz]

Very nice Darren,

I thought Doug Fisher when i first saw the image !

 

[john bossley]

hi, darren, that has the wow factor, how long did that take to finish =D> =D> , jb.

 

[Doug B]

That certainly stands out for all the right reasons Darren, lovely work.


Nice website as well.



Doug.

 

[shroom]

Simple awesome that, how creative.........T

 

[skeetoids]

Hi,

I agree with Boysie, get bored more often m8?

You've certainly flung everything into this one but I like it.

Nice 1,

Lee.

 

[SVB]

It is a nice piece and well executed.

I am not sure how I feel about offering it commercially given the clear link to a professional turner's work though?

S

 

[Darren D Breeze]

Hi all, and thank you for all your comments, in answer to one of the questions about 'time to do' it didnt take more than an afternoon to do, as it was a play piece nothing was preplanned so was just a case of do a bit, colour it, do something else, try a differnt texture etc, no idea what the final thing was going to look like. In reply to SVB's comment, i presume the professional you are relating this piece to, is of the work by Nick Agar? and I admit that the idea of a free standing piece with a corner cut off was based on his work, I met him earlier this year at a demo, It was seeing a piece of his work that had inspired me to start woodturning in the first place, and I told him so. Where is the line drawn though, from where we are copying another persons work and what we can class as an original idea? If it is a blatant copy, or if the piece has so much similarity then i agree that the original creator should be mentioned, but how often is a completely original idea seen in turning, isnt just about everything we do just our interpretaion of someone elses work, we go to watch demo's to get ideas, then use any knowledge gained to further our own development as turners. Simon Hope uses pewter, Mark Sanger uses polymer clays, Binh Pho uses a turbine drill to pierce, Nick Arnul makes textured and coloured vessels, the list is endless, and im sure most of these turners ideas are just interpretaions of something they've seen someone else do, albeit in woodturning or another medium, but as they are recognised by many as the instigators of these ideas, are we to refrain from using or making a piece incorporating one of these elements, without mentioning from whom we got the idea?
I recently made a piece, basically copies of two peoples work, one was a textured vessel by Mark Sanger, he scorched his, i coloured mine, the other idea was taken from Graham Priddles work, basically 3 curved spars lashed to the vessel, I amalgamated the two ideas, but acknowledged both people when i posted pictures of the piece.
Im not having a rant, honestly, and appreciate and respect SVB's comment, Im just unsure how, when and to who, we convey our inspirations behind a piece, I would appreciate others turners views on this issue, not about my piece but in general.
Regards Darren

 

[miles_hot]

It is an interesting problem Darren and to be honest I'm glad that I'm not looking to sell my stuff through galleries at the moment (actually it'd be nice to make something...). If you look at "signature" elements such as shape or finials I struggle to think what you could do different or not be accused of "copying" someone. If you make it elegantly thin and say black - you're obviously copying Cindy, make a nice flame shape or a twist or have a metal bead there's a copy somewhere. Go for an elegant hollow form and there's either of the George's designs or simple wood shapes in spalting think Ellsworth etc etc. The list goes on.

Whilst I'm sitting thinking about some finial shape which hasn't been used for the far distant day when I get something into a gallery I'm more and more coming around to the idea that so long as you're not trying to actually pass off as someone else or denigrate their work by putting a "George" finial on some utter rubbish does it matter? You've signed it as your own, not tying to hurt someone else and as people have said there's little new in the world etc...

Just my ramblings

Miles

 

[Darren D Breeze]

Thank you Miles for your 'ramblings' I have just spent several hours searching out more of Nick Agars work, and can now appreciate even more SVB's remarks, I generally dont spend much time looking at anyones work in detail, as i fear i would start making copies of things, Nick done a quick demo of one of these corner off pieces, i didnt take much notice of the details etc, and when i made mine i had loosely based it on the corner off idea, after that i was trying to do my own thing, now having done more reasearch into this style of his work i can see that he has already done everything that i'd thought was my take on it, so mine has virtually no originality to it, doh!!! But does this mean i shall spend hours researching every aspect of anything i make, nope! If i spend long enough searching everything we make could probably be found on the web, made by someone somewhere. But perhaps this piece is, on reflection, a little too close to Nicks work, albeit unintentionally, and as such he should get acknowledgement, so thank you Nick, your work inspired me originally to start turning, and continues to do so, even if subliminally, if thats the right word?
Darren

 

[mark sanger]

Hi Darren

It is a great piece of work.

I don't know where to start or finish when it comes to copying/when we can say it is a copy or not.

Commercially I guess if you change a few things about a piece there is nothing anyone could do as it is not a copy. Yes the basis behind it may be the same but then is a ford Terrano not the same as a Nissan as they are made from the same body work, but with a different badge.

( not sure if I have the makes right as I am tosh on cars). But you get the idea.

Also I guess if you are not saying it is the originators work by signing it then again you are not copying.

But I am not up on the ins and outs of copying.

I know of one turner not far from me who if you go to one of his exhibitions has work identical to Simon Hope, Nick Agar etc etc etc, he signs it as his own and sells it. He was going to make one of my chilli pieces that last time I saw him.

One of the issues I believe ( and this is only my interpretation) is that woodturners are generally a friendly bunch and there is as apparent code of honour/respect in the turning world that others will not copy work.

However this has no connection to the real business world where it is dog eat dog.

As a full time turner who goes around demonstrating how to make my lidded forms, I can then surely not say " you can't make that, that is my idea, bla bla bla," and throw my toys out of the pram when someone does.

If people do not want others to make work similar or based on there ideas and techniques, don't show them at a demo. If I do show others how to make an item and they do and out sell me, then tough I should be better at what I do. I have to keep ahead of the game.

When I started turning I use to try to emulate the finials of Cindy Drozda until I got to the stage of wanting to express my own identity in my work. Eventually you come up with variations of ideas/forms which express what you want from the work.

Forms with lids on and finials have been made since about 3000bc in China. The Egyptians did a few poor copies of my work too :lol: :lol:

I have heard people say that people should not turn a certain hollow form shape as it is like so in so's. Should so- in-so not rest on his laurels/name and come up with some new ideas, keep ahead of the game. ?

Picasso painted pictures of people, does this then mean Matisse should not and that he should contribute a figurative work to Picasso every time he painted one. No as they both have their own identity/way of doing it which makes them unique.

For me it is not so much just the techniques and colour but how they are put together.

Not sure if I have made any sense as I do not know where the line starts and is drawn. One thing I do know is that it will always happen and as professional turners we have to market our work etc so when someone sees it they will say " that is a Mark Sanger, etc". It is also a great compliment to have someone want to make a piece of work the same or similar to mine. But if they do it is good form to credit the originator. As you have done with my demo in the past/mentioned.

It comes down I guess how blatant a copy of something it is or not. No I would not want someone to copy my hook finial and sell it or show it without crediting me as I think it is the correct thing to do.

But what could I do about it if they didn't ? not much I guess.

Does it matter, well I guess if they started taking away food from the table yes it would. But again could I do anything about it. ?

So I guess I am not much help as I can not help where the line is drawn/crosses over as individual makers and people will find reference from many places until they find their own identity in their work. But I guess we know when we are copying and when we should credit the originator.

 

[skeetoids]

Hi,

I have a different way of thinking about this.

I believe that there are no original ideas, nothing is new, or developed or improved upon. Everything is already in existence wether it's real or existential. The thought that we can create something and then claim that it's ours is utterly rediculous. It's a bit like claiming you own nature or thought or feelings.

The way I view life is that as humans we are all capable of exactly the same thing. If one person does something then we are capable of doing it. It doesn't matter that Newton 'discovered' gravity, he didn't make it, it was already there, his acknowledgement of it and interpretation of it doesn't make it his! When Tim Berners-Lee created the internet, he didn't say it's mine, I did it, in fact he said the opposite, he had simply discovered something that someone else would have done anyway!

In terms of turning, the point I think is to what degree someone 'copies' a piece you have made and how they then lay claim to it. If Mark makes a beaded box, with a specific shape and colour out of beach and I do the exact same then to me that's fine. The thorny part is about the presentation of my piece as being authentic, original and mine. This is not true and is clearly unsavoury to say the least. I would take great pride in saying that Mark gave me the idea, the inspiration etc. and duly nod in his direction.

The problem as I see it is that as humans we are fascinated with owning 'stuff'. It's my idea, my object, my work etc. etc. Quite frankly that approach is childish and pea's. It's about as original and authentic as a fart in a space suit!

In 1000 yearts no one will give a rubbish about any of it, your idea, my idea, his box, her bowl, all nosense and irrelevant if you ask me.

Cheers,

Lee.

 

[Tinbasher]

For me a COPY is a deliberate attempt to replicate exactly anothers work and is not in itself wrong. A FORGERY is passing that off as the others work and is very wrong and probably criminal if money changes hands.

However we are all inspired and informed by the work of others and drawing that line is nigh on impossible. One of the reasons we use web forums like this and spend the fortune we all do on magazines is to learn in both practical ways and in the way we look at the design potential of our work.

The discussion in an earlier thread about the supposed "copyright" on a bench amused me as to breach copyright you would need to accuratly replicate an object in some detail and accuracy especially such a fundamental object. The copyright holder of The Bench is probably a fossil by now.

T

 

[Philip Streeting]

Excellent work Darren, you have obviously had some professional tuition and help with your turning to be able to make such quick progress. It would be great if you could share with the rest of us who has delivered your turning training and provided such a positive influence in what you do.

Phil

 

[Darren D Breeze]

Thank you all for your opinions on the copying/not copying issue, I guess it will always raise questions, same as the Art/Craft debate!! and thank you for all your kind comments about the piece in general.
Hi Philip, with regards to tuition, I had a few hours with Nick Arnull and the same with Andy Coates when i first started, just to understand the basic tooling techniques, after that its just been down to trial and error, and during my first year a fair bit of practise mostly due to a seperation and locking myself away in the shed so we didnt have to be in the house together, a bit extreme and wouldn't recommend it just to improve ones turning.
Generally i think the single biggest thing that has improved my turning from day 1, has been to regularly attend club meetings and show my pieces, however bad!! and then ask my peers for honest opinions, whats good, whats bad, eventually you learn to include the better bits and omit the bad bits, my reasoning being that there is no point turning say 100 bowls and including the same faults, asking the 'erindoors will normally invoke the same reaction, as non turners see our work from a different perspective. There are no rights or wrongs, and it is always just someones opinion, but if the general consencous is that a certain part of your turning needs work then you can address that issue, we all strive to make the 'perfect piece' but i think that eludes us all, hence we keep making things, and every piece can be a learning experience to some degree.
Regards all, Darren

 

[Philip Streeting]

Hi Darren,

I profoundly disagree with much of what you have said here about copying, creativity and originality but now have greater understanding of where those ideas may have come from.

Philip

 

[Darren D Breeze]

Hi Philip, you say "I profoundly disagree" could you elaberate a little more, my ramblings I thought were not saying categorically one thing or the other, but trying to ascertain a general opinion on the subject of, "at what point is a piece a copy", I for one would not like to take credit for a piece if i had deliberatley copied exactly someone elses work without giving them acknowledgement, although i hope i never make a direct copy of anything. Are you saying that its a free for all, copy at will, use ideas as you see fit, its a dog eat dog world, or are you saying we should not copy anyones ideas, shapes, styles or forms. From your short sharp message, I feel as though you may have taken offence, so could you clarify your views on this subject please.
Regards Darren

 

[Philip Streeting]

Hi Darren,

No you haven't caused any offence. Anything I write on Forums now has to be short and concise. I have upset too many turners and members of Forums with my views and take on things related to turning.

It just occurs to me that you are capable of doing more with your skills. Copying or more correctly plagiarising other turner's work is an easy way out and it devalues other turners' work both financially and creatively.

In my view the 'nothing new under the sun' quotes usually come from the creatively challenged.

Phil

 

[skeetoids]

Creativity is the last bastion of the unimaginative.

I couldn't care less about creativity, the point i'm trying to make is more to do with the pathetic attempts by us to lay claim to something that we think we've created, i have no interest in laying claim to any of the things i make, copy them, pass it off as your own, i makes no difference to me whatsoever.

Now, i wouldn't do this with another persons work because that's just nasty but do it to me and it wouldn't bother me one bit.

Trying to create something you think is yours or unique or original i think is stupid and pointless, to use this as a driving force for work i think is rubbish. It's more than likely that the creator is suffering and trying to use creativity as a tool to understand themselves. Anyway, what do i know, i'm as full of S**T as the next person.