19th Century Welsh Lathe

[Rhyolith]

I have here what I think is a 19th Century wood Lathe from a water mill.

Llanio Mill Lathe by Rhyolith, on Flickr

I think I know which mill it came from too thanks to a stamp on the tail stock:

Llanio Mill Lathe by Rhyolith, on Flickr

This one: http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/24765 ... ntium-mill

That is not that far from where I bought the lathe so I think that being its origin is quite plausible. The seller didn't know much about its origin. I never got round to going to look at this mill while I was in Wales so at the moment thats all I know.

Any further insights?

-----

I want to get it running and I have a few queries.

I believe this type of lathe would have had a wooden bed, which I don't have. It seems to fit well on some 3x6" i have, though these pieces are not long enough. Should I be using pine or hardwood? Where's the best place to source some decent quality bits?

I plane to mount it on two narrow A-frames, though i think most of these original were on two single 'pillars' rather than a frame. Like this: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/at ... 030355.jpg
Any thoughts?

My biggest concern though is the set up to power this thing. It obviously runs on belts, from the ceiling originally I imagine, but i am not sure what I am doing here.

First problem is the belt set up. It cannot have the belts fed up from underneath as the base of the head stock is wider than the pulley (even the largest one), so it has to come from either above or to the side.

Second is the motor. Where do I get one and what am i looking for? I don't have 3 phase.

A scaler image (the ruler on top of the head stock pulley is a 30cm):

Llanio Mill Lathe by Rhyolith, on Flickr

This is a long term project, at the moment I mainly want to know how much money I need to get this working and how long it would take.

As an aside: I feel kinda bad taking this piece of Welsh history so far from Wales, so once I am done with it I will return it to Ceredigion.

 

[AndyT]

Cool!

Thinking about where I've seen stuff like that on display, I thought of the Welsh Slate Museum.
It has workshops, including a pattern maker's shop, with some old belt driven machines.
Have a look at this photographer's blog for some photos, including something similar, mounted low down and powered by overhead belting, though maybe on a bigger scale.
You'll need to scroll down a bit.
https://mikehardisty.wordpress.com/tag/ ... te-museum/

 

[bugbear]

Can anyone work out why it's got a fancy arrangement to keep the tailstock feed wheel below the line of the tailstock, instead of the usual coaxial (and simple, and cheap) arrangement?

BugBear

 

[NazNomad]

Not far from me, you could've popped in for a cuppa. :-D

Not much of the actual mill left, as I recall.

 

[AndyT]

Can anyone work out why it's got a fancy arrangement to keep the tailstock feed wheel below the line of the tailstock, instead of the usual coaxial (and simple, and cheap) arrangement?

BugBear

That's a good question!
Looking again at the first photo, there seems to be a bit of flat bar fixed to the inside of the end of the tailstock casting which the threaded rod screws into, so I wonder if it's a later modification or replacement, not part of the original design. Does that make sense, Rhyolith? What does it look like with the tailstock quill fully retracted?

 

[Rhyolith]

Cool!

Thinking about where I've seen stuff like that on display, I thought of the Welsh Slate Museum.
It has workshops, including a pattern maker's shop, with some old belt driven machines.
Have a look at this photographer's blog for some photos, including something similar, mounted low down and powered by overhead belting, though maybe on a bigger scale.
You'll need to scroll down a bit.
https://mikehardisty.wordpress.com/tag/ ... te-museum/

One of my favourate museums! Visited it in October.

Trouble is all their stuff still works off the waterwheel and belts from the ceiling, I don’t have those. So what I am unsure about is how to set a lathe like this up to run from a motor.

Can anyone work out why it's got a fancy arrangement to keep the tailstock feed wheel below the line of the tailstock, instead of the usual coaxial (and simple, and cheap) arrangement?

BugBear

The whole thing actually quite large, so if the wheel was mounted directly behind the centre of the tailstock it would probably been uncomfortably up high to use. Other than that maybe its to stop the tailstock centre from rotating.

Not far from me, you could've popped in for a cuppa. :-D

Not much of the actual mill left, as I recall.

I spent a lot of time round Tregaron and that area, theres a good chance I saw you without knowing it. Though never saw a shark with a cannon in its mouth, do they live in the teifi? :mrgreen:

 

[Rhyolith]

Can anyone work out why it's got a fancy arrangement to keep the tailstock feed wheel below the line of the tailstock, instead of the usual coaxial (and simple, and cheap) arrangement?

BugBear

That's a good question!
Looking again at the first photo, there seems to be a bit of flat bar fixed to the inside of the end of the tailstock casting which the threaded rod screws into, so I wonder if it's a later modification or replacement, not part of the original design. Does that make sense, Rhyolith? What does it look like with the tailstock quill fully retracted?

I’ll have a look.

 

[AndyT]

Thinking again about your question re beds, I've had a bit of a read and looked at some more photos.

I reckon that your lathe parts would look right mounted on a pair of wooden beams, as in the picture you linked to. Hardwood would be nice but I don't think it would be essential - a bit of old roofing joist might be good.
Iron beds were common on self-contained treadle lathes sold to amateurs but they are really only needed for metalwork with a slide rest, moved along the beds while cutting. For turning wood, the important reference straight line is the surface of the tool rest, not the bed of the lathe, so it doesn't matter if the top surfaces of the bearers are not perfectly flat. (The flatter the better though - you don't want the headstock and tailstock pointing up in the air, you want them in line.)
Holtzapffel is dismissive of the hybrid solution, strips of iron on top of wood, since the metal and iron will want to move relative to each other.

It looks like the castings are thicker in the middle, which may be designed to stop twisting when clamped between a pair of beams. You should have - or need to reproduce - a couple of big handscrews which will screw into the holes in the castings to clamp them down.

Looking through my own photos, I found this picture - from the Cheddleton Flint mill. Sorry it's a poor photo - it was a hand held compact on a not very bright day - but you can see some old wooden bed beams on the lathe which are the sort of thing I am talking about.

 

[bugbear]

This is spooky. I was googling for an image of a lathe with twin beams for a bed.

I found this page (which is where one of Rhyolith's images came from in his initial post).

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/an ... ry-270750/

On that page user "Asquith" says "The basic shape of the iron tailstock is reminiscent of the wooden one at Combe Mill."

The image is this:

Look at the tail stock...(enlarged and enhanced) :shock:

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

Well, that's interesting. Please ignore my misguided suggestion - it does seem to be an earlier standard design, which I guess would have been easier to make than the in-line arrangement.
Frankly, the whole thread seems to be very informative - I ought to get into the habit of reading linked-to resources as well as the main discussion.

This was one of the first images there, which is an even closer match, as it has the extra guide rod:

At least the bearers are wooden.

I'm off to read what those machinists have to say in the rest of their discussion...

 

[AndyT]

The machinists' discussion shows two interesting ways to power a lathe using your headstock, not driven from a treadle below the beds.

The most practical way is to acquire a small stationary oil or steam engine and stand it behind the lathe:

I saw hundreds of suitable engines at the Great Dorset Steam Fair. There are also plenty of them on display in Oakham Treasures, near Bristol.

But the real fun would be to build a Great Wheel like this:

What's holding you back? :lol:

 

[NazNomad]

Though never saw a shark with a cannon in its mouth, do they live in the teifi? :mrgreen:

Most of the Teifi isn't clean enough for anything to live in it. :-D


... and it's a CO2 cartridge (from the Hydraulic Press Channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcMDMo ... wi5-MeiQgw)

 

[Rhyolith]

Andy, I do not have space for a massive great fly wheel like that (yet) :shock: Though I do like the idea of running it off a steam engine... honestly I know more about them than electric motors so that might actually be practical (hammer)

Its funny, I just put "Water Mill Lathe" into google images and picked the first one that looked vaguely like mine... had no idea it was linked to a useful thread. Those other images you two posted are amazingly similar, any references to dates for that style? I am pretty sure its 19th century, but I would be nice (as always) to know more

Though never saw a shark with a cannon in its mouth, do they live in the teifi? :mrgreen:

Most of the Teifi isn't clean enough for anything to live in it. :-D


... and it's a CO2 cartridge (from the Hydraulic Press Channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcMDMo ... wi5-MeiQgw)

Not even explosive CO2 canister sharks?

 

[AndyT]

The only other useful thought I can offer is that when I needed flat belting for my treadle powered Barnes lathe, I bought it from these people, on Andy Toolsntat's advice https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/T ... and-Belts/ They seem to also sell big flat pulleys for the other end. Maybe you could fit one to a motor from a washing machine? Or maybe a cheapo lathe could be a good source of a suitable motor + switch + mounting options? I quite like the idea of something new and Chinese driving a bit of good old English cast iron.

 

[finneyb]

Can anyone work out why it's got a fancy arrangement to keep the tailstock feed wheel below the line of the tailstock, instead of the usual coaxial (and simple, and cheap) arrangement?

BugBear

Bugbear

I think its to save tapping the full length of the quill - did they have the ability to tap this length at that time?
Tapping the 20mm or so of the stand can be done by hand.

I assume that the modern quill is tapped with a machine - somebody on here must know.

Brian

 

[Rhyolith]

The only other useful thought I can offer is that when I needed flat belting for my treadle powered Barnes lathe, I bought it from these people, on Andy Toolsntat's advice https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/T ... and-Belts/ They seem to also sell big flat pulleys for the other end. Maybe you could fit one to a motor from a washing machine? Or maybe a cheapo lathe could be a good source of a suitable motor + switch + mounting options? I quite like the idea of something new and Chinese driving a bit of good old English cast iron.

That is useful, I was wondering where to get pulleys. I assume direct from the motor to the lathe would be ok?

The only thing then is sourcing the power system, I don't really know where to start with that.

 

[dickm]

Trying to remember the guy's name, but there was a piece in a 'Murrican magazine some 20+ years ago about a supplier of CI head and tailstocks and banjos specifically designed to be used with double wooden beam beds. Wonder if they are still available?

 

[jurriaan]

That would be the Conover lathe?

http://www.lathes.co.uk/conover/

 

[dickm]

That would be the Conover lathe?

http://www.lathes.co.uk/conover/

That's the one! What it is to have a functional memory!!

 

[ohowson]

1.5 years since the last post - I wonder how the resto is going?

For my 2p worth, I'd probably get a motor from a mobility scooter or something like that and either power it from a battery and recharge regularly, or invert mains to 12/24v as required.