tenon or dovetail saw

[Modernist]

Strangely enough I have had a foot in both camps. I like accumulating a range of quality tools and bought a LN tenon saw second hand. To my great surprise and disappointment I couldn't get on with it. It seemed light and flimsy compared to my usual fare of a 60 year old GHE Charlesworth from Sheffield and Disston and I didn't find the handle comfortable so it went back on ebay and I made a profit

I do believe modern quality planes work better than their predecessors but I have yet to see anything so convincing on saws. I use re-handled S & J Professionals for hand saws and they are excellent and probably better than my Disston panel saw in terms of steel quality. Even the more esoteric variable pitch DT saws work fine but are going to be problematic to sharpen, let alone re-cut.

Conclusion - it is difficult to be dogmatic on either side of the argument.

 

[andy king]

Hi Brian,

I agree.
I still believe a folded brass back saw has better merit over the new glued method, you get more weight and the saw can be maintained easily should anything start to move. I reckon the old style Thomas Flinn Pax handle was pretty good of the new breed, if slightly chunky, and the saw itself excellent.
Planes are different, old planes are well worth tweaking if you know what to do if it needs it, but the new standard stuff is pretty ropey.
I wonder what the college tutors recommend now for the carpentry/joinery trades?
In my day we were told Stanley, Marples, Disston, Tyzack, S&J and so forth as the brands to buy for hand tools, but TBH, the current 'trade' Baileys are poor, but the rub lies in a new kid coming into the trade, or likewise a would be woodworker wanting to have a go.
Buying new but buying poorly would put them off, questioning their own abilities (as commented on earlier in the thread) but buying secondhand could be equally prblematic if you don't know what you are looking for, or how to set things up/rejuvinate/ressurect if they are in need of it.
With saws especially, the chances are they will need some work, and even those in the trade often struggle here.
At least buying new and buying above basic budget level should at least give anyone new to the game a chance to assess whether they or the tools are at fault and go from there.
Easy to say the info needed to buy secondhand and tweak is here on the forums, but how many people are actually active on these? A very small band of people, so a new woodworker would maybe not find that info when needed.
From my own woodworking point oif view, I rarely use my old resharpenable handsaws nowadays, (I demo at shows how to sharpen saws, even if different from the 'trad' way, (but now seemingly not so obscure...)) I find the 'Jack' saws do the majority of that side of things well, you rarely use handsaws for premium jointing stuff....
I had no choice when I was younger, cutting sheet materials as well as other stuff soon took the edge off a saw - I was pretty impressed when the hardpoints arrived on the scene!
You don't really use handsaws for anything other than general work in most instances, and the Jacks do the job for me.
On the plus side, having to sharpen saws regularly (anyone remember the 'sharpening time' allowance!) you get a good feel for how to do it, much the same as edge tool honing.
A tenon/dovetail is different, the hardpoint versions, while sharp, are over set, flimsy etc, and i still rate a good quality back saw highly in that area.
Mind you, this is all my own personal view, i've no doubt many disagree!

cheers,
Andy

 

[Jacob]

..........
A great example Jacob would be your own kit of tools you were given at the end of your TOP's course.
As I recall, that was a basic set of decent quality tools with a value of around £200, and all rated as 'trade' items, no cheap budget stuff within, it was designed for you to go out on site and earn a living.......

You recall correctly. The idea was that you could get out there and work, which most did - you weren't there for fun - you had to be fairly committed to put up with the open prison style regime and the cast of eccentrics; stranger than Porridge! (TV).
There were "better" quality tools around (premium tools is not a new concept) but the TOPS set was, as you say, decent. £200 worth comes to mind but I've no idea of the retail prices in 1982

Here's the list, the official version of the essential minimum kit for a working joiner. Still got nearly all of it:
Record 5 1/2 jack plane
Sanderson & Kayser:
26" hand saw 6tpi
22" panel saw 10tpi
14" tenon saw 14tpi
Marples 3 firmer chisels 1" 3/4" 1/2"
Rabone Combination square
Whitehill 16oz claw hammer
Nail pullers (Footprint?)
sliding bevel (poor quality)
double sided oil stone
Large slotted cabinet screwdriver (no 14s?)
Medium sized slotted ratchet screwdriver
2 ft boxwood rule
2no nail punchs
Stanley brace & bit
one 32mm bit for yale locks.
mallet
S&J carpenters axe
marking gauge
bradawl
brass face marples spirit level

£100 worth on ebay at today's prices?

 

[pedder]

Am I the only one having a déjà-vu ?

:wink:

 

[Doug B]

Am I the only one having a déjà-vu ?

Earl Grey for me, this time in the morning.

 

[Jacob]

Typhoo for me.
Deja vu - Sorry yes I keep revisiting this list, partly because the question of a basic kit keeps coming up. I've just remembered another item - there must have been a 5/8" auger bit for the brace.
The kit equipped us (in theory) to do very general joinery e.g. making and fitting a door or a window.
Wandered off a bit this thread. :roll:

 

[Modernist]

Just to jerk us back to saws I snapped a bunch of teeth off my Jap dovetail saw last week trimming ebony splines off a mitre joint. I was surprised but perhaps shouldn't have been. The even more surprising thing is the amount of hot air generated about saws which need to stay on softwood. (TBF the Jap tool study group are aware of this)

I don't think I'll bother replacing it.

 

[Jacob]

Just to jerk us back to saws I snapped a bunch of teeth off my Jap dovetail saw last week trimming ebony splines off a mitre joint. I was surprised but perhaps shouldn't have been. The even more surprising thing is the amount of hot air generated about saws which need to stay on softwood. (TBF the Jap tool study group are aware of this)

I don't think I'll bother replacing it.

Right - that's another one to avoid!
If anything I think this thread (and the parallel LN thread) shows that sharpening and set is more important than saw quality - particularly if it's wrong to start with.
So would the advice to the OP be just to jump in with both feet as there is no simple answer - but sharpening is the key?
Personally what I've got from this thread is a nice saw for only £8!

 

[Modernist]

From my own woodworking point oif view, I rarely use my old resharpenable handsaws nowadays, (I demo at shows how to sharpen saws, even if different from the 'trad' way, (but now seemingly not so obscure...)) I find the 'Jack' saws do the majority of that side of things well, you rarely use handsaws for premium jointing stuff....

Nearly all handsaw work is now done with a plug on the end but for the infrequent times when it is needed, or sometimes just for the exercise cutting some boards to length, I prefer a good trad handsaw to a HP Jack which are and feel cheap and therefore don't give off much pleasure.

If I had to earn my living from woodwork it might be different. The way the economy is going I might get the chance shortly :lol:

 

[GazPal]

"Typically enthused over"? You're kidding right? We're not allowed to enthuse over tools any more without the bah-humbuggers removing any possible iota of enjoyment from the experience until they've "won". :roll:

Because the alternatives weren't there when I started, I've had considerable experience in getting "cheap" old tools in working order. It's a great way to learn about tool construction, metal-working and old tools, but it's a really lousy way to be a woodworker. For a beginner the learning curve is steep. Very steep. You're not just learning how to sharpen and what sharp really is, but how to grind an initial bevel (which even some experienced woodworkers still regard as something to be avoided, the wusses...). Not just a matter of learning how to set the frog, but finding out if you've actually got a frog that's still fit for purpose; not just learning what a cap iron is, but maybe painfully finding out that someone swapped yours at some point and it won't work in that plane. Meanwhile, you're losing more and more confidence because it must be you, right? Bad workman blames his tools, and all that jazz. Yeah, if you've got a mentor on your doorstep to help you, then okay, that route has much merit. But on your own? For my money (and from my experience), not if you're in it for the working of wood.

"Typically enthused over" means precisely that and in all honesty the best means by which one can advance in any craft with any confidence is via the mentoring route. Otherwise it's a hit and miss affair and there's no real need to assume any form of "bah, humbugging" anyone's enthusiasm from myself or any of the other craftsmen out there, UNLESS someone's attempting to guide newcomers into buying high end tools without gauging their (i) available budget and (ii) the intended (Not assumed) use for the tools. Of course people's perspectives can and do change, but why plan a tool list for someone without knowing more about what they intend to do with the tools?

I'd have a heart attack if approaching the topic as a newcomer wishing to swing a few doors, but be zealously informed that I need invest several hundred pounds into tooling up with everything but the kitchen sink, when all I need is a sharp pencil and inexpensive set of tools, which can be added to or improved upon if I wish to move ahead with other projects.

-----------------

If buying on a casual/beginner basis I'd recommend Irwin Jack saws as perfectly useable tools and think about re-sharpenable alternatives if the mood takes you and you wish to save a few quid by avoiding the disposable saw route. They're perfectly decent saws.

 

[Harbo]

Another thread that has gone ballistic.
Read the OP - the question was about whether to buy a tenon or a D/T!

Rod

 

[Modernist]

Another thread that has gone ballistic.
Read the OP - the question was about whether to buy a tenon or a D/T!

Rod

He's probably worked out what to do by now

Forums are there to promote discussion - which they do.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Forums are there to promote discussion - which they do.

But to a decreasing extent, unfortunately. All a bit grim really......

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Jacob]

Forums are there to promote discussion - which they do.

But to a decreasing extent, unfortunately. All a bit grim really......

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Isn't a 133 post discussion long enough for you Paul? Feel free to chip in if you want to keep it going!

 

[jimi43]

I'm not at all fanatical about either Western or Japanese style saws...I just happen to have both and I have to say that you can take teeth off the latter if you are not using it carefully. That being said the Huntley Oak Japanese style saw...

....is a great development which overcomes zealous use on really hardwoods.

I actually cut this lignum vitae bowl in half with it.....

...I would say that is a fairly good test!

It still has all the teeth and they are all just as sharp as they were before this test.

It's horses for courses really....I love my old 100 year old Sorby backsaw too...but since I was more happy replacing the Huntley Oak than screwing up the Pedder-sharpened Sorby....I decided not to risk it! :mrgreen:

Jim

 

[Modernist]

That's the first time I've seen the Huntley saw although I was aware of it as I suggested above. I wasn't using my Ax Jap DT saw "zealously" I was just trimming some 3mm thick ebony splines. It's not just the brittle teeth that put me off a replacement, I find I am not so comfortable using pull saws and prefer a Disston style handle which I find easier to control.

I also note the point above about LN tenon saws. I don't think this issue about it being a precision instrument, rather than a tool for lopping off tenon ends, is made sufficiently strongly. After all it is important.

There is plenty of room for all the above, and more, but people have to make informed choices if they are to avoid (expensive) disappointment.

 

[No skills]

I like the cut of the japanese saws I have owned but I have had teeth snap off one first cut out of the box. Neither hardwood or ham-fistedness* (new word any one? ) was involved.

What makes the Huntley Oak saw better than others?



* of which I am often guilty

 

[condeesteso]

I appreciate this has drifted off-thread a bit. But at least this is about saws. I recently lost some teeth off a Japanese saw cross-cutting bog oak, and taking reasonable care doing it. Is it the case that Japanese tools have been mainly developed (over centuries) to work softwoods? The Huntley (I tried Jim's) seems slightly beefed-up and hence better suited to the hard stuff. I would not have dreamed of cutting that LV of Jim's with the more conventional Japanese saw. But if you like pull-saws and work hardwoods I'd say the Huntley is a very good option.
One last thing re old and new - I really like thin-kerfs, and that is where the Japanese and finer new western saws excel I feel.

 

[Jacob]

..... - I really like thin-kerfs, .....

Why? Seems pointless, and even more so if it requires fragile saws which are difficult to use. Nobody looks at saw kerfs in the finished article - and if they can see them its a mistake!

 

[No skills]

Which ones are difficult to use?