Making custom spindle moulder cutters

[RogerS]

I thought that some folk might be interested in the process I go through when making up custom spindle moulder cutters. This is how I do it. Others may/will do it differently.

Guess the first question is ‘Why would you want to use them ?’. A couple of reasons spring to mind.

Method 1 - is to match an existing profile in a door or window etc that one is making a replacement part for. For this my preferred method is to get some cling film and two-part car body filler. Mix up some filler, take a sheet of cling film and put it over your palm, slap the filler on top followed by another sheet of cling film and then hold the whole lot over the original moulding making sure you get the filler into all the nooks and crannies in the original moulding. It can get a bit warm while the filler hardens. Once hard, take a slice through the filler that is now a profile of your moulding, draw up/photograph/whatever and send it to your preferred supplier of custom cutters.

Method 2 - is often used when, for example, you want to create a period moulding on a door or architrave and the pattern for the moulding is not available from usual sources.

But first a bit of history. Our house was built in 1754. In the 1960’s, there was a plan to build a large reservoir in the North East. Two sites were in play - one based around the Irthing Gorge and the other Kielder. A London-based couple - the Darlings - bought the house together with a swathe of river frontage. Had Irthing got the go-ahead then they reckoned they’d be sitting on a tourist trap AKA gold mine. But Kielder won the day and the Darling bar stewards simply walked away and let this Georgian house rot. By the mid-1970’s all that was left were the gable ends, the back wall and some of the front wall. The roof had totally gone so allowing all the original Georgian interior to rot. Bar stewards. The house was eventually bought back from them in the 1970’s and renovated - after a fashion. Architraves made from decking, for example !

We’re trying to bring back a little bit more authenticism. So CD (Chief Designer) carried out some research and liked this door by Robert Adams - designed and made at a similar time to our house.



Further research discovered a company called Atkey who will make doors, architraves and skirting to the same design as the originals. Albeit at a price. But they do have a good website with lots of diagrams including this door from Bowood House. CD then chose architrave and skirting to suit.

Now I can’t post their pictures as they are copyright but you can see what we chose directly from their website

https://atkeyandco.com/product/georgian ... r-gdr0180/

https://atkeyandco.com/product/georgian ... g-gdm0180/

https://atkeyandco.com/product/georgian ... e-gar0195/

https://atkeyandco.com/product/georgian ... d-gsk0189/

So taking a cross-section of the moulding from their website, they state the overall dimensions, I make a simple four cell spreadsheet that will let me take the dimensions from the printout and convert them to actual size. I then rough sketch the drawings with dimensions thus.

Architrave - note two cutters required due to the size of the architrave



Door moulding - note two cutters required (scribe and profile) and a proper ovolo



Skirting



You can cross-reference these back to the profiles on the Atkey site.

At this point I like to send these drawings off to the supplier for a rough check that they are ‘doable’. The reason for this is that my original idea was to do the door profile and scribe in one pass with a groove in for the panel but I was told that they couldn’t machine up the small groove for the panel. So the door will now be a two pass moulding process.

If they’ve passed their sanity check then the next stage is for the supplier (I’m using Whitehill in this instance but other suppliers are available) to draw up proper drawings thus …

Door



All good.

Skirting - Rev 1



Note their comment at the bottom and referring the drawing to the Atkey profile it certainly looks wrong. Further inspection showed I’d cocked up on the initial drawing and the width of the skirting at this point is 22mm and not 28mm

Skirting - Rev 2



Spot on

Architrave - Rev 1



I wasn’t sure how this one would pan out because sometimes if the size and/or shape of the profile is such then you need a tilting spindle moulder (which I no longer have). But no tilt needed here. However, what I did pick up was that I could get the cutters altered to make the rebate as part of their profile and so cut down on the number of passes through the spindle moulder.

Architrave - Rev 2



Note that they missed out the requested change to the profile cutter on the left.

Architrave - Rev 3



All good.

And a few days later, the courier brought me these cutters. Chuffed to bits. Cost £60 a pair + VAT

 

[johnnyb]

Very interesting post. 2 part dental siloxane would probably be better for the moulds( or even alginate)

 

[deema]

Great post, did the price include the limiters or would these have been an extra charge?

It would be really interesting to see if you can swap the cutters in the block / stack two blocks with just one setup and it runs the profile without a step where the two rebates will meet.

 

[RogerS]

Great post, did the price include the limiters or would these have been an extra charge?

No, limiters would be extra. I use a sacrificial fence plus a power feeder so risk is minimised to a reasonable level. Obviously couldn't do it in a pro-shop.

It would be really interesting to see if you can swap the cutters in the block / stack two blocks with just one setup and it runs the profile without a step where the two rebates will meet.

I like that idea. Not sure if I have two identical cutterheads though (to ensure the correct registration between the two.)

 

[Racers]

I paid £100 for a set with limiters from East Midlands Saw and Tool, made to match a sample of moulding in HSS.

Pete

 

[RogerS]

I paid £100 for a set with limiters from East Midlands Saw and Tool, made to match a sample of moulding in HSS.

Pete

That's a keen price, Pete. + VAT presumably.

 

[Racers]

Inc vat, if I remember correctly, it was a while ago.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Slight misnomer in the title - this thread seems not to be about making but more about having them made (at great expense).
In fact they are very easy to do it yourself and very cheap. Cheaper than router cutters by the time you have several profiles on one blank.
Working from a sample of the moulding you grind them but use the hallowed process of "offering up" to check for accuracy. This ensures much more accurate results than would be possible from a measured drawing and in fact usually proves more accurate than a direct copy machine.
All you need is a 6" bench grinder with 2 half inch wheels, one square one half round, and ditto quarter inch wheels.
Useful but not essential is an angle grinder for speedy roughing out.
I've done hundreds over the years. It used to be the norm and you can still see huge collections of hand made cutters coming up in sales etc.

 

[RogerS]

Slight misnomer in the title - this thread seems not to be about making but more about having them made (at great expense).
In fact they are very easy to do it yourself and very cheap. Cheaper than router cutters by the time you have several profiles on one blank.
Working from a sample of the moulding you grind them but use the hallowed process of "offering up" to check for accuracy. This ensures much more accurate results than would be possible from a measured drawing and in fact usually proves more accurate than a direct copy machine.
All you need is a 6" bench grinder with 2 half inch wheels, one square one half round, and ditto quarter inch wheels.
Useful but not essential is an angle grinder for speedy roughing out.

I was hesitant about posting up this thread because I knew that sooner or later you would be coming along with your usual bull sh it. You just don't know when to shut up.

You are, as usual, talking complete and utter boll ox. How the **** are you going to cut those profiles with your jury-rigged bodgers' delight ? You really are a pain in the a r s e

 

[Trevanion]

You are, as usual, talking complete and utter boll ox. How the **** are you going to cut those profiles with your jury-rigged bodgers' delight ? You really are a pain in the a r s e

Jacob isn't wrong though. I only ever really go to Whitehill when it needs to a dead accurate pair of cutters for matching scribes to mouldings for window and door work, everything else that isn't a standard shape of knife I grind them by hand. I found by the time I've drawn up the moulding / sent off a sample of the moulding to Whitehill and heard back I would've ground the knives to suit and would've had the job done. It's not for everyone but it does save a large fortune, makes all the smaller one-off jobs more profitable. It's definitely a skill that's fading away and my hats off to anyone that still does it.


Out of curiosity Jacob, what block do you use for this kind of work? Old style Whitehill ones, serrated or the newer Euro pin ones?

 

[Jacob]

Old style Whitehill and serrated. The Whitehill was the safety cutter of its day and is hugely safer than the alternatives- square block, french cutters etc. Can be done with modern safety cutters but you don't get the fine adjustment - a tilting spindle would help.
A matching pair isn't even essential - one cutter can be set back a touch, or be there just for balance, so that only the other one is working
Essential to use either power feed, or two push sticks plus full guarding.
Even if you have ready made cutters it's handy to be able to tweak them on a grindstone if they aren't as you would like.

 

[RogerS]

.... I only ever really go to Whitehill when it needs to a dead accurate pair of cutters for matching scribes to mouldings for window and door work, everything else that isn't a standard shape of knife I grind them by hand....

I accept that point of view. Curious....could you have ground by hand all the profiles in my examples ? With all the detailing ? Exactly ? If you could then hats off to you.

With "All you need is a 6" bench grinder with 2 half inch wheels, one square one half round, and ditto quarter inch wheels." ?

 

[Beau]

.... I only ever really go to Whitehill when it needs to a dead accurate pair of cutters for matching scribes to mouldings for window and door work, everything else that isn't a standard shape of knife I grind them by hand....

I accept that point of view. Curious....could you have ground by hand all the profiles in my examples ? With all the detailing ? Exactly ? If you could then hats off to you.

With "All you need is a 6" bench grinder with 2 half inch wheels, one square one half round, and ditto quarter inch wheels." ?

Not that I have ever ground moulder knives but recently needed a reasonably tight radius ground onto a piece of mild steel. I set up my 9" angle grinder with a grinding disk and a makeshift table. Reshaped the edge of the disk to have nice radius on it and it was surprisingly easy to grind back to my marks. Not sure I could match the precision of the knives you had done but I suppose if you take you time have a steady hand and good sight it could be done.

 

[RogerS]

.... I only ever really go to Whitehill when it needs to a dead accurate pair of cutters for matching scribes to mouldings for window and door work, everything else that isn't a standard shape of knife I grind them by hand....

I accept that point of view. Curious....could you have ground by hand all the profiles in my examples ? With all the detailing ? Exactly ? If you could then hats off to you.

With "All you need is a 6" bench grinder with 2 half inch wheels, one square one half round, and ditto quarter inch wheels." ?

Not that I have ever ground moulder knives but recently needed a reasonably tight radius ground onto a piece of mild steel. I set up my 9" angle grinder with a grinding disk and a makeshift table. Reshaped the edge of the disk to have nice radius on it and it was surprisingly easy to grind back to my marks. Not sure I could match the precision of the knives you had done but I suppose if you take you time have a steady hand and good sight it could be done.

Even this one ? With a cutting edge?

 

[Deadeye]

Wow. You guys.
Where's the love?

 

[Jacob]

No prob.
The trick is to grind it square on without a bevel, keep offering up to fit the sample until perfect and only then grind the bevel.
THEN the uber trick is to deepen the hollows slightly to account for the cutting angle of the blade, offering up as before but at the cutting angle (as near as you can judge).
All freehand and surprisingly accurate.
You can also change the profile of your cutting wheels with a wheel dresser tool, e.g. shape your 1/4" wheel to a smaller diameter, but the basic square and half round does for everything bigger i.e. don't have to match radius.
PS I just edited and put accurate in place of precise. Freehand is less 'precise' than machine but by virtue of offering up to an actual sample is likely to be more 'accurate' in terms of a profile which matches the original.
I've never ground one from a drawing but have done it quite often freehand without a sample, just judging by eye. You might as well because on old work no two lengths of moulding will be precisely a match as they were done by hand with intermittent sharpening altering profiles.

 

[Trevanion]

Curious....could you have ground by hand all the profiles in my examples ? With all the detailing ? Exactly ? If you could then hats off to you.

I mean, sure it won't be as dead accurate on the radii as a CNC grinder, I'll admit that. But it would be close enough that you couldn't tell the moulded samples wood from each other. It's wood after all, it's not really a highly accurate material by nature.

It's whatever floats your boat really.

 

[Jacob]

I should add - if you can't put your hands on samples then the next best is Roger's painstaking approach as described; working from drawings. Still possible DIY and cheap.
I'd tend to regard the drawings as for guidance rather than precise copying i.e. you'd strive to copy but there would be little freehand deviations, in a very traditional manner!

 

[RogerS]

..... Still possible DIY and cheap.
....

Perhaps we could have some photos of your custom cutters ? I'd be very interested to see the level of detailing and finesse that you can achieve.

 

[MikeG.]

........Not that I have ever ground moulder knives but recently needed a reasonably tight radius ground onto a piece of mild steel............

I nearly joined this conversation earlier. Glad I didn't. You raise the point which I was going to: mild steel. Are spindle moulder cutters made from mild steel, or something harder? If they are from tool-grade steel, and there is no case hardening afterwards, then grinding them on a (dry) bench grinder is going to be a really careful and slow process to avoid overheating. Just curious, as I have no spindle moulder. I have no dog in this fight, as some say.