Your first timber yard visit

[Grawschbags]

As a mere novice to woodworking, the prospect of my first visit to the timber yard for materials is daunting.

All of you were beginners in this game at one point, so I'm interested to hear what your experiences where the first time you walked through the door.

I have an impression, rightly or wrongly, that these guys deal with tradesmen day in day out that know what they're talking about. The last thing they want is an upstart like me walking through the door and asking a million questions...

I have bought materials previously, but took the cowardly way out and ordered online from one of the big retailers.

Anyways, just thought it'd be interesting to hear the experience of the veterans for myself, and other newbies on the forum.

Cheers.

 

[AndyT]

There certainly are timber yards who want to attract people buying small quantities alongside trade customers.
There are also yards who only seek to sell by the lorry load. The trouble is, they don't always make it clear what sort of customers they want.
In my experience, the best way for someone not in the trade is to say straight up that they aren't, and that they will need extra help with their purchases and ask if they are in the right place.
If the answer is yes, you get the help you need,without embarrassment. If it's no, you go elsewhere.

 

[RobinBHM]

Timber is unlike most materials and timber yards can be a bit intimidating.

Andy's advice is very wise.

What are you wanting to buy? If you understand how the timber is sold, it will be easier to specify. To help the sales staff it is helpful to be able to have your order in a form that closely resembles what the yard sells. In some ways this becomes the problem -you wont know what boards they have, so you wont know exactly the best boards you need to cover your cutting list.

Hardwoods are sold in a different format to softwoods for example.

The starting point is to know what thickness timber you need. Hardwood and softwoods are categorised first by thickness, which are 25mm, 32mm, 38mm, 50mm, 63mm, 75mm 100mm. This is the nominal sawn size, assume you will need to allow 5 to 10mm to plane flat.

Sawn hardwood boards are cut during log conversion to random widths, but are sold in nominal 1" widths, so in general are round up by the merchant. So if you ask for an 8" wide board, it could be 7.5" wide or up to just under 8.5".

Softwood are mostly converted into specific sizes so 2" × 4", 2" × 6" etc

Lengths are 0.3m

 

[Beau]

First time was a mix of awe and apprehension. Can't say I enjoyed my early dealings with small merchants but you get the hang of it. You see these massive stacks and ask for 2 cubic feet of 2" oak and get a look to say "stop wasting my time sonny" but to be fair very rarely left empty handed.

Be organised and except you it's bloody rude to pick through a stack to pick out the perfect quarter sawn board and leave the rest. Use lesser cuts were you can and this cheers the merchant.

Don't skimp you will undoubtedly use any spare on another job and there is nothing worse than being one board short at the end of the job because of a fault you missed on the day.

Take a block plane to clean up a bit to see the true colour and grain. Also a moisture meter if you have one to avoid part dried material.

Allow for the fact the cracks on ends of the boards often open up a bit further down the length of the board once in the workshop.

Sounds stupid but make sure you have the means to get your chosen wood home. Have seen some funny sites with guys trying to strap a board onto a roof with no roof-rack and piece of string. Always leave the planks as long as you can and give you more options as to were make cuts back in the workshop

Good luck

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Don't pretend to know things you don't - it's quite likely to bite you on the arrse.

 

[Bale]

In my experience, the best way for someone not in the trade is to say straight up that they aren't, and that they will need extra help with their purchases and ask if they are in the right place.
If the answer is yes, you get the help you need,without embarrassment. If it's no, you go elsewhere.

I too have found this to work well. I once went to a large commercial mill and fessed up straight away. The sales rep said they were delighted to deal with individual cabinet makers as they often had a much better idea of what they wanted than the commercial buyers they usually dealt with, which made his job a lot easier. You may find that you know more than you think you do.

Pete

 

[lurker]

Take cash
Don't visit first thing or late, avoid lunch time
As the others say tell them the truth but also say you want to avoid the sheds as they sell carp.

My personal ploy is to take safety gloves ( we have lots at work ) and give them to whoever helps me.

 

[AndyT]

One thing I have not done often, and find really difficult, is to buy whole sawn boards with a project in mind.
For example, I made a garden chair out of oak. Frankly, I made a guess and got lucky. Having got the wood home, I spent several hours with scale drawings of my random boards on squared paper so I could sketch in all the parts, and then more time chalking them onto the boards. I had only a few scraps left. (In retrospect if I had bought one more board I could have avoided some sapwood, but that's an extra lesson. )

So how do you do this in advance, if you don't know what lengths and widths will be available? Sometimes the answer is just to ring up (not email) and ask. Sometimes I reckon it's better to give your cutting list to the merchant and let him work out the best way to convert the boards he has into the pieces you need.
Could you have got a better deal elsewhere? Maybe, if your required sizes meant a lot of wastage, but I think you just have to look at the final price and accept that it's a bargain for a beautiful bespoke piece of work!

 

[John15]

I usually give the merchant a cutting list for sawn boards and rely on him to sort some decent stuff for the project I have in mind, and if he's uncertain about the suitability of a piece he'll ring me. He gives me a price and if OK I tell him to go ahead. They will plane the boards for you but I prefer to do that myself.
Good luck,

John

 

[dickm]

Not much help, but I struck lucky on an early visit to a quite intimidating yard near Milton Keynes. The foreman instantly recognised that we shared the same Herefordshire accent and discovered we knew the same folks in that area, so was really helpful. But you can't rely on that sort of luck, so follow the advice given above. A decent yard will probably try to help; if they don't, go elsewhere until you feel more comfortable, the go back and start asking questions of the unhelpful ones if it looks like they have good stock.

 

[transatlantic]

I've only been to two.

The first one was'nt a great experience. The guy seemed very friendly until he worked out I only wanted a single sheet of plywood. At that point he turned a bit rude, and was just trying to get rid of me, or so it seemed. Didn't leave with anything as I felt a little put off by his attitude. The annoying thing was that this place had a lot of choice, luckily it was somewhere I was only visiting.

The second place was much better. Very friendly, even though I only spent £80, which I believe is a pretty small order.

IMO, people shouldn't have to say whether they are trade or not, or whether they're only making a small order. If they're not willing to deal with that, it should be up to them to make that clear. I.E clearly specify a minimum order, like some places I've seen do. Savessel us both the trouble.

The thing I find the most difficult or frustrating as a newbie, is the lack of clear pricing. It makes it very difficult to make an order.

 

[TFrench]

Lack of pricing is something you get at any supplier in any industry - means they can charge what they like to non account holders! We get 80% plus from our supplier but if joe bloggs walks in they'll give him 50% "because they like the look of him" and he'll walk away happy that he got a bargain...

 

[custard]

If you're serious about furniture making and want hardwood timber that's better than average, then you're doing the right thing. If you're a small hardwood buyer you have very little chance of getting your hands on the really good stuff unless you get down to the yard in person and select your own boards. Timber is a funny old commodity. Softwood and Oak tends to have a more structured and accepted grading/pricing structure, but everything else tends to be a fixed price per cubic foot with only minimal price differences to reflect massive quality differences. As an independent maker I can gain a substantial commercial advantage over mass market retailers by individually selecting those amazing boards that turn furniture into something genuinely special and unique...and the bizarre thing is you rarely pay a significant price premium for truly exceptional timbers, but what you do have to do is put the effort into buying.

Have your cutting list with you and buy according to that. So for example if you're jointing boards to make a wide top then think about how harmoniously those boards will fit together, wild grain may look amazing on a single board but it might all get too busy when randomly butted up against another wild grained board. However get consecutive boards from the same log and you can book match those wild grained boards for something drop dead gorgeous. Don't skimp. Wastage is generally higher than you expect, so buy more than you think you'll possibly need. If you stick to mainstream species like Oak, Ash or Cherry you can roll any surplus into the next project. If you go off piste and buy something unusual you may come unstuck if you then need to go back for 50mm stock for legs.

Don't try and have a big old woody conversation with the yard hand, he may be gagging to chat about sharpening techniques but the chances are he couldn't care less, so save that stuff for the forum. Worth asking what new deliveries they've had recently, so you're not looking at rejected boards that have been picked over many times before.

Find yourself a decent yard and stick with it so they get to know your face. When you go back again take a photo of what you've made, don't make a big deal about it but show them where their timber has ended up, you may be surprised how much goodwill this can generate.

Good luck!

 

[Grawschbags]

Thanks all for the advice on what to brush up on before going in. Interesting that folk have had such varied experiences.

The pricing, or lack of is something that I will probably struggle with as well. I guess I'll just learn what the comparable prices are from the big retailers, and use it as a rough gauge against the quality of the wood from the timber merchant to see if it's fair or not.

I think I would just tell them that I'm a small time noob woodworker straight off the bat. Like said above, no point in pretending I know what I'm talking about.

I have at least 3 timber merchants round about me, in Central Scotland that I'm aware of, so I'll sound them all out. But if anyone knows of good ones.....

I feel some roof bars for the car coming up so I can transport the stuff home without asking for it to be cut.

 

[custard]

One other thing, some timbers tend to have a local bias. Your location means you're in with a decent chance of finding local Elm which has all but disappeared further south, Scotland also produces some superb Sycamore, arctic white with a good chance of getting the heavily rippled stuff we all look for.

 

[monkeybiter]

When buying building timber in DIY quantities if I'm planning to spend upwards of £50 then I'll phone ahead for a quote, making it clear that's what I'm doing.
Wouldn't that work with hardwood suppliers? i.e. to get a price/cube knowing you're only after a small amount.

 

[Stiggy]

I've worked in timber or builders merchants for about 20 years and I think it depends how good the staff are and what their attitude is.

The best thing for a non-wood-expert is to ask to look around the yard to see what they have, if you see someone in the yard, ask them what something is. Make sure you have a tape measure and use millimetres when asking for a price of something.

If it all seems too much trouble for the staff then they don't want your business - simple as that!

Be polite, listen to what the staff say and try to be smiley - you'd be amazed at what a diffence a happy person makes.

If all fails, find what you want, measure it, ask how it is sold and how much per unit.

Job done.

 

[Grawschbags]

Thanks again all.

I'm certainly not in the market for exotic materials just yet. I'm still thinking in plywood sheets, and maybe something a bit more exotic for face framing etc.

I don't really have the skills/knowledge yet to go joining boards and match grains just now. It's not something I will ever make a career out of. If friends/family want me to make something for them, great!

My initial projects will be cabinets etc for my garage (single) to hopefully turn it in to a hobbyist workshop, with some dedicated tools. I fancy taking a few bits of furniture for my man cave in the house as well. I'm still at the stage where I'm excited about a cutting guide I've made for my circular saw... Not even opened my Router yet!

I do have a few designs scribbled down, so I probably should turn them in to a cutting list so I know what I need.

 

[Togalosh]

My 1st visit went a bit like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSINO6MKtco
..needless to say I have never darkened their door again although they are very local to me.

 

[doctor Bob]

I've been doing this for years and embarrassingly I've never been to a yard.