You need to be sitting down ...

[JohnPW]

I suspect the market for this is not woodworkers or even woodworking tool collectors, but sword and knife collectors. How much are Japanese swords, hundreds of thousands of £? Don't people buy them and put them in bank vaults.

Maybe the maker only makes marking knives as a side line, perhaps they are actually sword makers. Even though £500 to the rich would be like £5 to the plebs, I don't think they would pay £500 for a lowly marking knife unless there was some prestige or status that goes with it; it's made by a famous samurai sword maker.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

You'd be gutted when you lost in the shavings bin.
.

 

[BHolcombe]

I suspect the market for this is not woodworkers or even woodworking tool collectors, but sword and knife collectors. How much are Japanese swords, hundreds of thousands of £? Don't people buy them and put them in bank vaults.

Maybe the maker only makes marking knives as a side line, perhaps they are actually sword makers. Even though £500 to the rich would be like £5 to the plebs, I don't think they would pay £500 for a lowly marking knife unless there was some prestige or status that goes with it; it's made by a famous samurai sword maker.

You may find yourself very surprised when you dig through the tool boxes of guys who do Japanese carpentry work. Many of them use some top end tools without mercy. Not abuse, by any means, but those tools are made to work.

To offer some perspective a sort of general maker kiridashi (marking knife), handmade, would probably run about $150 (USD).

These guys use these tools like one wears a pair of nice shoes...treat them well, avoid a scuff....but they're still made to be walked in!

 

[Biliphuster]

Don't think you're getting a hard reception Brian, it's just that half the members here have never paid more than a fiver at a car boot sale for any tool. The only thing most here prefer to picking up cheap tools is arguing about sharpening.

 

[D_W]

I can't afford that kind of cake for a marking knife, but I have seen knives of that quality that are plain carbon steel shave iron without chipping.

I know for sure that my cheap knife doesn't do as well, because I tried to trim the same type of iron hoop and the result wasn't similar.

At any rate, it's like anything else. If you think the price is too high, it's intended for someone else who doesn't. It's certainly too high for me, but so are fast cars and big houses.

 

[BHolcombe]

Don't think you're getting a hard reception Brian, it's just that half the members here have never paid more than a fiver at a car boot sale for any tool. The only thing most here prefer to picking up cheap tools is arguing about sharpening.

It doesn't bother me at all, and in fact it's more than I would spend for a kiridashi but I can admire it and the work involved. I also admire thrift!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Interesting site, Brian ... once I realised I had to change the .vom to .com

 

[Corneel]

However which way you look at it, there is no 500 euro value in this marking knife. Not in the materials, not in the time to make it, not in the craftsmanship, not in the result on your workbench. But then, there is also no 1890 euro value in this Gucci bag. Still they sell like hot cakes! https://www.gucci.com/nl/en_gb/pr/w...gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CLHzlNHl_9ACFUGadwodS5QLXQ

It's all in the brand name. Lots and lots of people are prepared to pay way beyond anything reasonable, just because of the brand name. And that's fine of course, it's how many business models work. In my own small, cheap and low profile way I fall for this trap too, buying the brandname instead of the cheap generic product.

 

[AJB Temple]

I read this with some amusement. There are a lot of Festool fans on this site. Value judgements are largely pointless as they are subject to personal preference and wealth.

 

[iNewbie]

Its mini samurai sword ffs. Its worth every euro - cuz the pound aint worth a dime!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I think it's cultural, as much as anything. The Japanese have a deep reverence for fine craftsmanship, and express that in the way some are prepared to labour long and hard to earn their status as respected makers, and in the way those makers are looked up to. In Europe and North America, we also respect craftsmanship, but don't quite elevate it to quite such stratospheric levels - we tend to reserve that for film stars and pop singers, for some reason.

Is the Japanese blacksmith doing something special, then? Well, he IS doing it to a very high level of skill and finish, but he's not using materials or techniques that were not available in Sheffield and elsewhere two centuries ago. There's nothing particularly magical about 'white paper' high carbon steel or wrought iron; indeed, those two metallurgical entities have fallen out of use in most economies because for 99.9% of applications, there are better options - and there have been for over a century.

However, for those who do want the 0.1% better performance that might be gained from such a knife or hammer, and gain inner satisfaction from owning and using them, the option is available, at a price; and why not? It's for each to determine their own needs, desires and priorities when spending their own money - and long may that continue.

 

[thetyreman]

here's an example of an extremely high quality knife, for a fraction of the cost: http://www.niwaki.com/store/kanekoma-hi ... lue-steel/

 

[BHolcombe]

I think it's cultural, as much as anything. The Japanese have a deep reverence for fine craftsmanship, and express that in the way some are prepared to labour long and hard to earn their status as respected makers, and in the way those makers are looked up to. In Europe and North America, we also respect craftsmanship, but don't quite elevate it to quite such stratospheric levels - we tend to reserve that for film stars and pop singers, for some reason.

Is the Japanese blacksmith doing something special, then? Well, he IS doing it to a very high level of skill and finish, but he's not using materials or techniques that were not available in Sheffield and elsewhere two centuries ago. There's nothing particularly magical about 'white paper' high carbon steel or wrought iron; indeed, those two metallurgical entities have fallen out of use in most economies because for 99.9% of applications, there are better options - and there have been for over a century.

However, for those who do want the 0.1% better performance that might be gained from such a knife or hammer, and gain inner satisfaction from owning and using them, the option is available, at a price; and why not? It's for each to determine their own needs, desires and priorities when spending their own money - and long may that continue.

Better is subjective and by application, I have white steel 1 tools that hold their edges for an incredibly long time, even through work in hardwoods. The reason they do so is because the blacksmith knew what he was doing.

The annual planing competition, in which the contestants are now, regularly, taking 2 and 3 micron shavings, 2" wide and 8' long....they're doing that with blacksmith made white steel blades.

So, you are correct in asserting that there is nothing magical about it, and I agree there is nothing magical. It takes skill, and skilled labor is something you pay for last I checked.....which is the same reason why world renowned Savile Row tailors don't work on the cheap.

Kees....sorry, and you know I respect you dearly, but really consider what you are saying. The price is 500 euro, it is being sold by a retailer who paid a wholesaler who paid the blacksmith. So the blacksmith's price, if I were to take a guess; 150-200 euro. Skilled labor rates in the USA are $100-$125/hr (not what the employee gets paid, but what a client is billed for shop hours or union wage) so consider that the blacksmith had likely 2~ hours in that work plus materials.

You've done some smithy work, are you taking raw material to a finished product in 2 hours? That is to forge weld, rough shape, grind bevel/profile, scrape the hollow, heat treat, then finish work.....all before coffee break in order to earn your living wage?

 

[D_W]

here's an example of an extremely high quality knife, for a fraction of the cost: http://www.niwaki.com/store/kanekoma-hi ... lue-steel/

That knife would be in the category of the kinds of things that I've gotten (marking knives, I've never gotten a folding knife). Low cost items are usually made of factory laminated steel. They are usually good (especially compared to third world mass produced stuff), but not in the class of the OP's link.

There is a cultural thing in Japan that probably doesn't exist in other cultures, that it's not acceptable to sharpen your tools while you're on the job. Maybe that's where the extreme edge holding thing originates.

 

[Trafalgar]

That the Japanese are able to parlay the use of a slightly harder steel into tools that sell for the prices they do is a way more impressive bit of marketing than it is anything else. Take a few photos of a nearly toothless, almost homeless and malnourished octogenarian hammering tool steel in front of a forge situated in a shack somewhere, pen some bullshite marketing blurb for the U.S. market and, voila', add $300++ to the price tag.

Beyond regurgitation of ad copy, when pressed, most Western owners of these tools can come up with nothing more concrete than "the edges last longer."

Whooptee do.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Available for the bargain-basement price of 278-43 Euros from Australia - https://www.japanesetools.com.au/produc ... king-knife - which makes Dictum's 490 Euros look a bit steep.

You can still buy a perfectly functional Joseph Marples marking knife for less than a tenner - http://www.toolnut.co.uk/products/measu ... Knife.html

I bought mine from Alan Holtam's Old Stores Turnery some time in the late 1980s for less than a fiver, and it's still going strong. No idea what steel it's made from, but it works just fine. Sharpens pencils, too.

 

[ED65]

You can still buy a perfectly functional Joseph Marples marking knife for less than a tenner - http://www.toolnut.co.uk/products/measu ... Knife.html

I bought mine from Alan Holtam's Old Stores Turnery some time in the late 1980s for less than a fiver, and it's still going strong. No idea what steel it's made from, but it works just fine. Sharpens pencils, too.

Like a few others here I presume I made mine from scrap so it was free (other than the time it took to make obvs). But I'm not sure if we're comparing like for like.

Come to think of it though all three will cut a clean, precise line on wood, sharpen a pencil and chamfer the end of a hardwood dowel when needed, so functionally maybe they are uncomfortably closer together than some would like them to be

 

[D_W]

Who is our straw person who has bought a knife like the one listed?

I kind of like junk knives made of saw blade material because they can be filed. I have gone out on a limb so far as to buy one of the prelaminated japanese knives that cost $16, though. It's pretty nice. Failed when trimming the hoop for a japanese chisel, though.

I'll bet japanese workers would wonder why westerners buy $50 dovetail knives that have a 50 cent piece of steel in them.

Actually, I doubt they wonder about our tools as much as we wonder about theirs.

 

[AJB Temple]

Interesting comments. I have been to Japan a few times and spent 10 days working in artisan kitchen knife making shops getting tuition (two different places) and a couple of days working at a one man band sword maker in the middle of rural Japan. The time spent at the sword maker was largely spent had making folded steel ingots and is extremely time consuming work. I also spent a few days working with Will Catcheside who make damascus steel kitchen knives in Herefordshire. (Very fine UK maker of a trade that has most proponents in the US and Japan).

None of this turned me into an expert anything, but what I did learn is that finely crafted hand made tools (or knives or whatever) take a VERY long time to make, especially if you are also forging the damascus steel, even more so if you are doing things like making feather patterns in the damascus. OK, a marking knife, even if made of hand forged damascus steel, is not a complex tool, but you can't hand make it quickly either if you are starting from scratch (as opposed to a pressed blank).

Some people will pay for that intangible link between the artisan, the tool and themselves. I would not pay that for a marking knife mind you. Or the hammer, even though I value and admire craft skills.

You can equally argue I suppose that a painting priced at £5,000 is ridiculous because the canvas, frame and paint only cost about £30 and the artist produced it in a couple of days. It comes down to whether you want to pay for something that you consider to be special.

 

[Corneel]

Kees....sorry, and you know I respect you dearly, but really consider what you are saying. The price is 500 euro, it is being sold by a retailer who paid a wholesaler who paid the blacksmith. So the blacksmith's price, if I were to take a guess; 150-200 euro. Skilled labor rates in the USA are $100-$125/hr (not what the employee gets paid, but what a client is billed for shop hours or union wage) so consider that the blacksmith had likely 2~ hours in that work plus materials.

You've done some smithy work, are you taking raw material to a finished product in 2 hours? That is to forge weld, rough shape, grind bevel/profile, scrape the hollow, heat treat, then finish work.....all before coffee break in order to earn your living wage?

It certainly looks like Dictum is taking a large part of that 500 euros, when comparing to the 278 euro from the Australian website for the same knife! And those Australians probably don't work for nothing either. I am afraid the blacksmith isn't getting rich from these knifes, he most probably doesn't make 125 dollar per hour, like many self employed craftsman he's lucky when he makes 50!

And then I think he doesn't do one knife or two knifes per day, I think he does batches and easilly does several dozen per day. Now, comes a bunch of arm chair theorising, so if you choose not to believe me, then I have no problem with that!. The fun thing about blacksmithing is that it is relatively quick work. You can move a lot of metal in very short time, when you are skilled. And I don't doubt for a second that mr. Chiyozuru is highly skilled! A very skilled craftsman is also a smart craftsman. I suspect he has gas forges and trip hammers in his shop. When you set up everything to run a batch of say 50 knifes, you have them all welded, flattened and shaped within an hour or so. Make a punch for that curious shape at the back end, or have some laser cutting company do that work for you. Punch the characters. Heat treating all of them, half an hour? Grinding all those 50 knifes takes another hour when the blacksmithing work has been done quickly and neatly. So within half a working day he has 50 knifes, 5 hours times 50 euro makes 250. Divide by 50 knifes and the cost to make them is 5 euro each.

It really is a very simple thing. A nice thing of course, a really nice simple little thing. I wouldn't feel ashamed to own it, but I probably never will.