WTB - Eclipse 36 honing guide

[Handrubbed]

I'm venturing (virtually) across the pond in search of an Eclipse #36 honing guide for a woodworking friend of mine. These are virtually non-existent here and I would like anyone's assistance in locating one in the UK. It would be much appreciated.

 

[Dave S]

Are you after an original?

Non-original copies are widely available over here, on Axminster, for example.

Dave

 

[Paul Chapman]

Some of the Eclipse clones are better in that they take wider blades (eg blades from scraper planes). However, some are not made so well so you need to be careful if buying one of the clones. Most (even the Eclipse) need some work with a file to make them work really well - it was interesting to see that Deneb Puchalski of Lie Nielsen, who was demonstrating at the recent Classic Hand Tools event at West Dean, had modified his with a file quite a lot.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Ironballs]

Just a quick question, why have you removed the Veritas from your shortlist? Freely available over there and comparable in performance to the eclipse - better in some ways, not as good in others

Cheers

Damian

 

[Handrubbed]

Quite honestly, I feel that the Eclipse (original) is still the best all around honing guide ever made. The clones are OK if you manage to get a decent copy. This friend of mine just happens to want an original. He has the Veritas and some others, but just has a craving for this one. Thanks.
When Lie-Nielsen's jig is released, you will find it to be a much-improved Eclipse. Who knows when that will be?

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

I picked up a genuine Eclipse at the spring Patina sale in Damascus, MD. Cost me all of $2.00 and it is far better made than the Chinese knock-off I also have.

 

[woodbloke]

When Lie-Nielsen's jig is released, you will find it to be a much-improved Eclipse. Who knows when that will be?

We heard a little rumour at West Dean about this (and possibly a new saw set) so I'm looking forward to seeing what LN come up with - Rob

 

[bugbear]

When Lie-Nielsen's jig is released, you will find it to be a much-improved Eclipse. Who knows when that will be?

I'm sort of intrigued by this - the (original) Eclipse is already made (materials + machining) a good deal better than it needs to be, given its design.

For example, since one jaw is convex, the screw mechnism that closes the body does not need to be immune to racking - clamping is assured.

And precision is (in general) absurd, given that final bevel angle is set byt projection, which is defined by the user's interaction with the guide, and is not part of the guide at all.

Adding fit + finish will make a nicer intrinsic object, but not (as far as I can judge) a better honing guide.

BugBear

 

[Paul Chapman]

Adding fit + finish will make a nicer intrinsic object, but not (as far as I can judge) a better honing guide.

Sometimes the bed on the Eclipse-style guides is not flat - the two halves can be at different levels or they can ride up when the guide is tightened up. This can be cured with a little work with a file. Also, the slots used to hold bevel-edge chisels can cause problems because of the variability of chisels.

When used for chisels, the tool is normally gripped like this

A better arrangement can be had by modifying the guide so that the chisel registers off the flat side, like this

For chisels, I now use the Trend guide, which registers off the flat side of the chisel like this (excuse the state of the chisel - it's new and I'm still flattening and polishing the back)

It also has a much wider roller than the Eclipse

I found that while the narrow Eclipse roller is good for honing cambers on plane blades, it can cause problems when honing chisels. If I didn't concentrate hard I found that I was often honing a skew shape on the chisel. With the wide Trend roller just hone away and the end comes out dead square

The Trend guide isn't perfect, though. Pig sticker chisels are too deep to fit in it and even some bevel-edge chisels (the largest of the Lie Nielsen's, for example,) are too deep to fit. Overall, though, for chisels I'm finding it the best of the guides.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bugbear]

Adding fit + finish will make a nicer intrinsic object, but not (as far as I can judge) a better honing guide.

Sometimes the bed on the Eclipse-style guides is not flat - the two halves can be at different levels or they can ride up when the guide is tightened up. This can be cured with a little work with a file.

Yes - all agreed. However...

The Eclipse guide only controls the bevel angle; the roller is too narrow to do anything else. Indeed, one could make the roller domed, and the guide would still work as well as ever.


Given this, it doesn't actually matter wether the blade is "yawed" or "rolled" within the jig. The jig only controls "pitch"

(handy diagram for jargon)

The flip side of this is that the end of the blade must be kept square (if that's what you want) by the user taking care to keep the edge "self-registered" on the abrasive.

If the roller were wide enough to control the "roll" of the jig, it would then (and only then...) be neccessary to have the tool accurately fixed for roll in the jig.

In practise, it comes down to this: either the "roll" of the tool is controlled by the edge of the tool, or the roller of the jig.

Here's the Marples 7418;

This guide has nor only a domed roller, but LOUSY control of skew.

It still works fine (I use it for skewed blades!)

BugBear

 

[Handrubbed]

Thanks to all who have replied so far. To Bugbear, I understand your question about LN "gilding the lilly" and I believe it was fairly answered in the post about the Trend guide, one that I was not familiar with. The Lie-Nielsen guide, from what has leaked out, will have a positive holding design for chisels and some way of accurately registering the bevel (or bezel, if you prefer) so that the thickness of the blade will not alter the angle. The Eclipse wheel is a tad too narrow for chisel work, as someone pointed out. The Kell jig addresses that issue rather well, but I just can't decide just how one is to hold that tool when that guide is clamped just 1/2 inch from the stone. That gets very tricky when the chisel is a 12 inch long socketed paring chisel. :roll:

At any rate I have now got myself off-topic. I'm still hopeful that the elusive Eclipse 36 will surface from one of you good folk.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I'm still hopeful that the elusive Eclipse 36 will surface from one of you good folk.

Have a look around second-hand shops or car boot sales - there are plenty of them about. One of mine ( a genuine Eclipse that was very old but in excellent condition) was bought in a second-hand tool shop for a couple of quid. No you can't have it [-(

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Handrubbed]

Bugbear, why must the sharpened surface be "self registered" with the sharpening medium? Isn't the purpose of the jig to provide the registration so that undesired pitch. roll and yaw do not occur? This is why jigs like the Veritas I & II and any top clamping jig are so limited. They can't control the yaw / skew.

 

[bugbear]

Bugbear, why must the sharpened surface be "self registered" with the sharpening medium? Isn't the purpose of the jig to provide the registration so that undesired pitch. roll and yaw do not occur?

Ah - there lies the question. What is the purpose of the jig...

I find that for wide edged blades, the only parameter I can't control by hand to my satisfaction is "pitch", and the Eclipse controls only pitch. It thus suits me well (for wide edge blades).

When a chisel is narrow, say under 3/8", I do find controlling "roll" to be an issue, and I use a different jig (Veritas mkII)

When a tool is complex, I use a very different jig.

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tour. ... pening_jig

BugBear

 

[TrimTheKing]

There are always a couple of eclipse guides on uk ebay, that's where I got mine, for under a fiver.

And there seem to be a few on there now...Here

Simples

 

[Handrubbed]

eBay UK....now that's what I'm talking about! Thanks, Mark. I will tell my friend to get bidding. He can ask them if they will ship to the U.S.

 

[lurker]

Some of them on the bay look like clones to me.

I'm on the look out for an original.
Will find one at a car boot eventually

I have two clones one from Proops Bros which is really good once I'd scraped off the paint from the registering surfaces.
And another from Wickes which is absolute crap

 

[Ironballs]

I've still not found a sharpening job that the Veritas can't do and do well

 

[bugbear]

I've still not found a sharpening job that the Veritas can't do and do well

Did you see my tank cutter? Admittedly, it's not a common tool, and (further) it cuts well enough straight of the grinder, but the (in the words of the great Tim Lehrer) "the idea's the important thing".

BugBear

 

[David C]

I originally suggested / requested the honing guide modification to Thomas back in about 2001 when we were shooting the plane sharpening video.

The idea was to have plane blade holding jaws similar to the chisel holding jaws. This would mean that the honing angle would be the same for differing blade thicknesses at a particular projection.

David Charlesworth