would you let someone use your shop?

[tombo]

I have just discovered that a work colleague of mine has an interest in wood working but does not have space for a workshop till he moves house.
I am dead keen to have a woodworking buddy at the office and have offered to let him try some small projects in my shop.
But suppose he does something stupid and hurts himself, would i be liable could i get sued?

thoughts...

 

[PAC1]

In short yes. you are the occupier and are liable for the safety of guests and tresspassers. further you cannot contract out of liability for personal injury.

 

[wizer]

Yes tricky. Generally, when I have visited other woodies workshops, the owner has done all the machine work. More of an unspoken understanding than an open rule. I think if you know the person well and you are confident that they are competant then you can let them use the machines. Make sure he watches you use them for the first 4 or 5 times. Talk him through what your doing and reccomend he buys some books or does some net research on safety in workshops. If you want to go one step further then you could get him to sign something, not sure how legal that is?

 

[Ross K]

We always insist on visitors getting their own personal accident and third party insurance before using our shop but there are several legal requirements that we are still bound by regardless.

 

[Anonymous]

Would I let someone use my workshop and tools?

No.

See above, and having paid a lot of money for the tooI would be a little concerned abotu them not taking the care I do.

I am alwasy happy for fourm members and friends to come over and have a play now and again, but you're talking about something different I think

 

[woodbloke]

To date I've had two forum members in my 'shop (apart from all the other's wot turn up to Bash's etc :wink: ) with no dire effects or knock-on consequences. The problem is always going to be that nagging 'what if' doubt which is enough to stop and make me think twice about letting others into the 'shop ('cept at the aforesaid Bash's etc) My household ins policy covers me against accidents, but it don't cover a third party, and therein lies the problemo. The two members concerned signed a 'Letter of Indemnity' but I suspect that it's probably not worth much in a legal wrangle should anything happen.
The issue of using tools is a minor one. All forum members know the value of good tools (or at least ought to) and treat mine with due respect when they come to play. For example Waka was quite happy to let me and Pete play with his new S&S planes a while back and I reciprocated when we had the Bash at the beginning of Dec - Rob

 

[Chems]

I don't see why you can't do a few projects together, I mean does he have any experience?

 

[Jake]

My household ins policy covers me against accidents, but it don't cover a third party, and therein lies the problemo. The two members concerned signed a 'Letter of Indemnity' but I suspect that it's probably not worth much in a legal wrangle should anything happen.

The other problem with your household insurance is that it will not cover commercial activities, and as you are charging cover would be declined on that ground too.

Again, the indemnity is worth nothing in your case - as others have said under UCTA it is not possible to exclude liability for death or personal injury if you are acting as a business.

For anyone else who is concerned about (non-paying) visitors and guests, the indemnity would work - UCTA only applies where one of the parties is acting in the course of a business.

 

[woodbloke]

Jake - thanks for that...as I thought - Rob

 

[dunbarhamlin]

How damnsilly is that? I voluntarily go into somebody else's workshop and they're liable for my ineptitude?
If anything, in Rob's case for instance, it would be right and proper if the student (i.e. employer) were deemed liable for any mishap Rob might suffer.
Really is time we were legally required to accept responsibility for our own actions. It used to be assumed.

 

[Jake]

How damnsilly is that? I voluntarily go into somebody else's workshop and they're liable for my ineptitude?

No, you are jumping to unwarranted conclusions. Rob is responsible for his own negligence, not yours.

If anything, in Rob's case for instance, it would be right and proper if the student (i.e. employer) were deemed liable for any mishap Rob might suffer.

Which you would be - assuming it is your fault/negligence.

If you take a saw to Rob's fingers in a fit of pique, you get to pay. If Rob is the other side of the room and decides to stick a chisel in his eye, you don't.

Really is time we were legally required to accept responsibility for our own actions. It used to be assumed.

You are, don't worry. Although it is often said that the law is an ass, in fact, the ass, more often than not, is the person who has misunderstood the law.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Just a thought.
Presumably tool hire companies are only liable if the rented tool is defective.
Could the workshop owner properly assign liability by renting shop and tools for a token fee?

 

[OPJ]

Can you not do all the machining for him and let him do all the hand tool work? Never leave him un-supervised in your workshop either.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

You are, don't worry. Although it is often said that the law is an ass, in fact, the ass, more often than not, is the person who has misunderstood the law.

Oops - must remember soto voce whenever I bray something in future :lol:
Pleased it isn't as bad as it sounds on the face of it.

 

[PAC1]

Dunbarhamlin

In relation to the hire of tools that would be a contract and so different laws apply but they cannot avoid liability for personal injury.

In relation to a workshop that you occupy you take responsibility for the safety of visitors and tresspassers alike. under the Occupiers Liability Acts

Yes you could rent the workshop to someone in which case they would occupy the workshop. But it would have to be a genuine lease. you could not say you lease the workshop and continue to use it yourself.

All good fun designed to keep me well employed!!!!!!

 

[tombo]

I knew this was a can of worms, my plan was never to leave someone in my shop without supervision.
But it would be nice to let them use all the tools from chisels to the table saw.
I'm not trying to make any money from it, i just would like to share my enthusiasm with a like minded fellow. Woodworking can be a solitary activity.
He would most likely sign a document to absolve me of responsibility but as some of you said it might make no difference legally speaking
Makes me think though all those times i have gone round to a mates to lift out an engine or change a clutch on a car that the same liabilities would apply.

ho hum

 

[Jake]

In relation to a workshop that you occupy you take responsibility for the safety of visitors and tresspassers alike. under the Occupiers Liability Acts

No need to scare people too much - there's no absolute duty to prevent injury (the liability is close enough to be analogous to negligence) and there's nothing stopping the visitor from assuming the risk (documented eg via Rob's indemnity (if it was non-commercial)).

Trespassers aren't given a huge amount of protection - perhaps best not to leave the tablesaw on, dado blade in, unguarded.

 

[Jake]

I knew this was a can of worms, my plan was never to leave someone in my shop without supervision.
But it would be nice to let them use all the tools from chisels to the table saw.
I'm not trying to make any money from it, i just would like to share my enthusiasm with a like minded fellow. Woodworking can be a solitary activity.
He would most likely sign a document to absolve me of responsibility but as some of you said it might make no difference legally speaking

Such a document would make all the difference, as long as you aren't taking any payment.

 

[wizer]

It's all about common sense Tom. If you like the guy and trust him then, as you say, it's the same as any mate coming over to give you a hand. Just make sure you've given him as much advice as possible and shadow him initially to watch for anything he's doing wrong. I really don't think you need to worry. If you was going to let him in there on his own then that'd be different.

 

[Jake]

It's all about common sense Tom. If you like the guy and trust him then, as you say, it's the same as any mate coming over to give you a hand. Just make sure you've given him as much advice as possible and shadow him initially to watch for anything he's doing wrong. I really don't think you need to worry. If you was going to let him in there on his own then that'd be different.

I dunno, I agree its possible to stress too much, but if there are power tools involved, I'd get some risk disclaimer signed just as a precaution. If the guy ended up literally giving Tom one of his hands in an accident, that sort of life and earnings changing event can change circumstances rapidly.