Workshop/Dust Collection help

[Copes]

Hi Guys,

I'm new to the whole workshop thing, i've recently built a 4x4m cabin that's my first proper workshop and after a (LOT) of deliberation i'm going to purchase an Axi AW10BSB2 tablesaw to start things off.

What i've no real idea of is dust collection in a workshop, using large diameter piping/tubing. I already have a Festool CTL26 which has been superb for all of my handtools so i would ideally like to try and get away with continuing to use this (i know this isn't its exact role.)

So, i was planning on buying a cyclone to try and extract as much of the larger debris as possible before it gets to the vac, as to which one? i've no idea... i've read so many conflicting things about whether i need to get fancy conductive plastic ones, or don't need those as it is a hobby use so static won't be a problem(?) does anyone have any advice/suggestions on this to start with?

The next thing i've no clue on is diameter/hose setup. The axi saw has a 100mm outlet, so somewhere i either need to include a stepper down, quite a few of the cyclones ive seen seem to have somewhere in the region of 50-66mm connections. What would be the ideal connection size from the size to the cyclone then from the cyclone to the vac?

I'd ideally like to try and incorporate a Y connector somewhere in the system as well so i can use my 27mm festool hose for my handtools.

Lastly... i've seen a few people mention that if at all possible, using piping is better than flexible hose(?) which shouldn't be a problem as nothing will really be moved once in position.

*At some point in the future, i will probably add a small bandsaw and small thickness/planer (which i realise my extractor is even less ideal for... but could i get away with occasional use with a cyclone?) thought it worth mentioning now as i'm trying to set it up.

Hopefully someone can give me some sensible, and reasonably cost effective advice as i think i've got a case of seeing too many different opinions at the moment.

Thanks a lot guys.

 

[slemishwoodcrafts]

In short you'd be best keeping your festool vac for your small tools.
For the table saw and when you get them your bandsaw and planer you will need a bigger extractor. Your vac is a low volume high pressure machine and what you really need is a high volume low pressure extractor. This will allow you to better collect the finer dust from your saws and clear the chips away from the planer.
You might find it cheaper and easier just to buy an extractor such as the record power cx2000 and connecting it to each machine as and when you use them. You could go down the route of ducting and leaving the extractor stationary but then you need a bigger (and more expensive) extractor not to mention the cost of ducting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MattRoberts]

Indeed - the AW10's port by the blade opens up like a snow shovel. Picture holding your festool hose in the air and then feeling the suction from about 4 inches away - you won't feel a thing. You'll need a decent powered 100mm + HVLP extractor in the 2hp range to handle the saw and the future machines you mention.

With regards to static in pvc pipes, the modern opinion appears to be : don't worry about it, it's not an issue.

 

[PAC1]

Copes, you can get away with anything. In fact why have any dust extraction. There are two theories (1) it saves you sweeping up or (2) it is better for your health.
If you realise it is option 2 and realise that it is the fine dust that can kill you then you look at dust extraction a completely different way.
The machines you have in mind will need 750cfm each so 1.5 to 2hp extractor and unless you vent to the outside you want a very good filter preferably 0.3mu
If you want to incorporate your hoover then arrange it so you can attach it to the crown guard on the saw. I do and it is a big help.
If option 1 the hoover with or without cyclone will not save much sweeping.

 

[Copes]

Thanks guys, I'm quite keen to get things working as safely as possible, the reason I have a festoon VAT is because I've already had some dust related health problems.

It's now just working out how to rearrange my shop plan to incorporate a massive dust extractor.

I'm presuming I want to go for one with a fine dust filter as well?

Taking s look at the tablesaw it says the extraction needs to be 1,000m³/hr so I'm looking at more than the entry level ones anyway as quite a few seem to be in the 750/hr

Would a canvac type work? Record make quite a few of those too or are they again different?

Ta

 

[PAC1]

It is well worth considering putting the extractor outside in its own little lean to then you do not need the filter and the reduction in suck that goes with the finer filter. I put mine outside last year and the improvement in air quality is amazing. The downside is 18 air changes an hour.
As for high pressure low volume (Camvac etc), it depends how big a thicknesser you get. I swapped from high pressure to low pressure because my HP system could not cope with the volume of chipping from the thicknesser.
I put in a 1.5hp system with 150mm ducting and it does a far better job then I imagined it would. In my view the standard 100mm pipe is undersized for most needs and 125 to 175mm is really needed. You simply cannot get the volume through a 100mm duct and contrary to common belief the air speed does not increase to compensate. So you need to look at volume and airspeed and check what size port the manufacturer is using for its test data.

 

[Copes]

Been browsing through axi's website as it would be ideal to get both machines delivered at the same time.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-tr ... tor-508483

This one looks good to me, its not too big. (the idea of the outside leantoo is great, but sadly living in the outskirts of london space in my garden is sadly very small and the workshop has already taken over most of it. so its the 4x4m is all i'm getting.)

And it can also filter down to 1 micron, and do 1000/hr @ 100mm like the saw requires. I won't be able to pipe it up to multiple things but then that was never really my intention - i think in reality with the size of my workshop i'm going to have to store machines in corners/under benches anyway and move them around as required.

The only other one which stood out was: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ho ... eal-717658
which does double the airflow, would this be an all round better option? i lose more shop space, but would it increase the effectiveness of the system?

Also the filter looks to be a fair bit bigger than the one up top, how often do these things need to be replaced?

Bear in mind this is all obviously hobby use, so a few hours a week max.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[MattRoberts]

It comes down to how many machines you want to use. The former is fine to connect to a single machine, but it's going to really struggle if you connect it to multiple machines via ducting.

The latter is going to handle ducting to two or three machines just fine.

The filters very rarely need to be replaced. You just spin the handle to shake the dust off, and give it a quick hoover with the shop vac and a brush head if needed

 

[MikeJhn]

Duplicate post?

Mike

 

[MikeJhn]

The second one you posted (http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ho ... eal-717658) is what I have, its very good on multiple machines and clears my PT without any problems, highly recommended.

Mike

 

[Wizard9999]

I'm not sure I would be swayed by convenience of a single delivery.

My workshop is roughly 3m x 5m so overall a little smaller than yours. I have one of these (I paid a fair bit less than this buying it from CostCo so I'd advise shopping around)

https://www.sipuk.co.uk/sip-01954-dust-collector.html

Which is wall mounted...


...and spiral ducted to my main machines...


Before it was wall mounted I did move it around, but to be honest in a small space this actually proved to be a PITA as there was never the space to put it somewhere that was not in my way. Breaking the machine down also makes it much easier to insert a cyclone into the system, which frankly is IMHO a no brainer. For a 3HP extractor I was advised to go with a bigger cyclone.

In my experience when it comes to extraction bigger is better. The larger the amount of air moved the more efficient the extraction will be, so go for the machine with the best possible airflow. Then use the biggest ducting you can (whether you plumb it in or not), so if you go for the second Axy machine you link to dump the splitter that reduces it from 125mm to 100mm and use 125mm pipe or ducting.

Beware of any claims about airflow and filter efficiency. Manufacturers will test in optimal conditions (I don't blame them for that), so I have heard people say they do not get anything close to the quoted airflow. But I strongly suspect they will, for example, have tested with 125mm and not used the 100mm splitter and will be using the shortest possible lengths of flexible ducting as the corrugated interior interfers with the efficiency of the airflow. On filtration test any assertions about "filtering down to" a particular size of particle, what you want to know is what percentage of a particular size particle will be filtered out, not just the smallest particle that can theoretically be captured.

The top bag on the SiP model I have is useless so I made my own using HEPA filters from an purifier. I used the ones used by this guy (jump to 4:40 if you just want to see th e point on filters).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CrAtUVo-47g

He uses two on his 3HP extractor and seems happy, but I was worried about reduced suck so I made a bigger filter box (the big thing on the left in my first picture, only the top half mind I put some moveable shelves under it) with four of them pre filtered with a double layer of 20mm G4 rated filter media in front of each HEPA filter. I have found no noticeable reduction in suck when hooked up to the filter box, though in fairness I do not have the equipment to measure it scientifically.

Finally, if you do have it in a fixed spot set it up to be remote operated that way you can use it everytime, rather than not bothering because it is to troublesome to keep going over to switch it on.

Hope that helps.

Terry.

 

[Copes]

Thanks Wizard,

That's some pretty sizable piping! is that the 125mm? looks massive, i was just hoping to sort something out a little less big, the roof of my cabin is sloped and has support beams that don't have space above them so its a bit alkward to get anything ceiling attached as it would be getting a bit close to head height.

Hopefully going down to axi tomorrow i'll see some of these machines in the flesh and get a better idea than the pictures of how much space they realistically take up.

I'll definitely have a better look around though as that one does seem to offer a better deal than the axi branded ones.

Your workshop is looking good though, mine basically is just a pile of boxes in the middle so far! #eager

 

[Wizard9999]

Yes, 125mm ducting. That is compromised by the ports in my machines all being 100mm which is not ideal. At the end of the day unless you are unusually blessed there is always compromise, so appreciate it may not work to have fixed ducting in your workshop given the construction. But even if that is not possible and you move the extractor to the machine I would still say go for 125mm flex hose instead of 100mm.

American videos so it is all in CFM not m3, but these videos provides some interesting properly measured factual data.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kzvnU3qwrvk
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QxzTCzNnFUU

It also shows how he built a system that he moves to his machines but which is much improved on a 'standard' purchased version as it incorporates a cyclone. As you have probably seen the Axminster machines with built in cyclones start at north of £700 for a 1 HP machine.

Hope that helps.

Terry.

 

[scgwhite]

Copes - I have the first machine you listed in your original post. I bought it as I have a small (1m x 1m) plant room that will house extractor and compressor and the larger models would fill that space entirely.

I am mostly happy with it, but with a few caveats. I find it powerful enough for my P/T and bandsaw - I intend to run it through a simple ducted system using soil pipe (110mm I think...) but just use it with a length of flexi pipe at the moment. The biggest issue is that the motor and turbine housing pass directly into the fine filter area - the collection bag is below this. Most other extractors have the filter above and the bag below. The result is that dirty air containing dust and chips leaves the turbine housing and tries to take the most direct route out - through the filter. This means that the filter picks up a LOT of dust and chips - I give the handle a wind after every operation, and I sometimes get a 10mm layer falling from the filter into the bag. I am planning to make a Thien separator at some point, which would solve most of the issue.

You mention a trip to Axminster tomorrow to have a look - if you can be up-and-about fairly early, I live about 10 minutes away from their Basingstoke store if you fancy a play with my machine - we could plane some scrap up to see it in action. We have folk coming for lunch, but I'm about in the morning for a cuppa!

 

[Copes]

Thanks scgwhite,

That's a kind offer but sadly i've only managed to talk the misses into heading up to High wycome as it's quite a bit closer to us (watford)

I haven't checked but hopefully axi have the various machines i want to see all on display so i can compare, and probably ask a million questions to them as well!

I'll let you know how i get on.

 

[Copes]

Hey guys, after my trip to axi I'm still debating between the two, the chap in store seemed to think both would be equally fine even though the smaller one is rated slightly lower than the minimum.

The bigger issue is the aw10 saw requires a 16amp socket which I totally missed on reviewing the specs.

I've got a consumer unit with a 32amp ring main in the workshop, does anyone know if t could be spurred from that or would it need it's own (RCD?) In the unit and ran separately?

Cheers p

 

[Wizard9999]

Somebody with real expertise will be along shortly, but I am afraid I am fairly certain the answer is going to be it can't just come off your ring main. I had two 16 amp sockets installed in my workshop (table saw and PT) and they each come off a dedicated circuit breaker in my consumer unit. You also have to consider 'B' and 'C' type breakers, for my 32 amp ring it is a 'B' but for my two 16 amp sockets they are 'C'. The difference is that the 'C' is less sensitive so the 'surge' on start up of something like a table saw or PT will not trip the circuit. The guy who fitted the consumer unit in my workshop put 'B' breakers in at first (despite me asking for 'C') and they tripped everytime I switched the table saw on, so he had to come back and correct it.

Terry.

 

[MattRoberts]

Hi, rest assured the AW10 can run off a 13amp plug - mine does

 

[Copes]

Hi Matt,

I did mention this, but i guess they have to stick to the "its a 16amp machine" line in the store.

Did you wire a new plug, or get an adapter type thing?

 

[MikeJhn]

Its not a 16 amp machine, its only 1.5Kw which is about 6amps, the problem is the start up load could trip out a lower amperage RCD, but as Matt said above it can run off a 13amp ring main, which is normally protected by a 32amp RCD as long as there is nothing of any high amperage already running on the circuit.

I think you will find that the guys in Axi just know that it has a 16amp plug on it, Axi even have adaptors for this, and sent me one along with the unit, if you go that route, get the long adaptor lead, the short one is useless.

Mike