Working hours experiment

[doctor Bob]

Dr Bob

Nice to hear of a boss who looks on staff as one of his assets, not a disposable item.

I think they are my greatest asset, as I said I've had emplyees in the past who caused nothing but trouble and it spreads like fire.
Having employees who get on together, produce good work and don't take the piss is wonderful and leaves me to concentrate on the business. Hence I try and keep them by any means possible.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Does anyone else remember the discussions often heard in the 70's regarding what we will do with the increased leisure time that we will all inevitably have at our disposal in the future?... Im still waiting!
However it is good to hear employers considering the welfare of employees.
I think some "other"(?) European countries regularly finish earlier on Fridays.

Robotics will do the same., and have the same non-effect. Remember the new, nuclear electricity, that would be "virtually free"? Possibly, people make statements that are not entirely true, in order to grab headlines.

Where's my flying car? (Can you imagine what Greta Thunberg would say about flying cars?!)

 

[HappyHacker]

An excellent initiative and I hope it works.

I have worked in presenteeism culture companies and did not find I did any more work. In one the manager started about 7-7:30am ( I was usually in about 7:30) and he finished after 19:00. He would then take a week off ill with stress every few months. As I and most of my colleagues were contractors on a day rate we did not get paid if we had time off sick. One of the managers, on contract, tended to come in about 13:00 and leave about 05:00 the following day. It was a real pain trying to work with him.

I heard of a company that worked 4 days a week and had Fridays off. They were owned by the staff and hard work was the norm but they were not trying to make a killing and work/life balance was important to them.

I remember being told in the late 60's that by the 90's we would all be working three days a week as computers took over and the "electricity too cheap to meter".

I have now retired and work 7 days a week!

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Robotics will do the same., and have the same non-effect.

As a one-time robotics researcher, I remember seeing once an observation that in the 60s/70s we had a vision of a future where the robots did all the work and we lived a life of leisure. To some extent it has come true, but what was envisaged as a life of leisure is now termed "unemployment". A couple of oversights - the lack of a mechanism to redistribute the wealth from the owner of all the robots to the people "living a life of leisure", and that for may people work is about much more than a wage - things like self esteem, companionship.

Where's my flying car? (Can you imagine what Greta Thunberg would say about flying cars?!)

And the absurd ideas by Amazon about drone delivery. I can see, in a time where we are recognising the environment in under threat, it is hard to get people to make changes that lessen their quality of life. But we might at least stop inventing new ways to squander and pollute.
Sorry to drift OT.

 

[Sideways]

Early finish Fridays is a nice perk - I worked in a place that did that for some years but it was done by starting earlier and shortening lunch, not messing with the 37.5 hr week.

Two years down the line and this will be "normailised". No one will remember what it was really liike before.
You'll find it very difficult to keep an objective measure of productivity in a changing bespoke business and there's some truth in the argument that "if you can't measure it, you can't manage it".
For your trial, think about how you might express productivity - even just for your own reference. Maybe note down a handful of standard jobs - size / material / tools and methods / finishes and how long these typically take today. At least you'll be able to see it when everything drifts back to the way it was.
I don't think you can measure and control productivity that well. If the guys want the short Friday, trade it for something tangible that will help you when everything else drifts back to normal. Maybe just the agreement that the guys will make themselves available for a certain number of hours a week overtime if you have a rush on.

Keeping the good guys is priceless and being very decisive about the eventual new hires that turn out to have a poor attitude is absolutely the way to go.
I always valued the unofficial flexibility that a small team can operate far more than the institutionalised flexitime that gets introduced in big companies. I haven't been paid overtime since I can remember but when I landed in a job I was happy with, I trusted my boss that if I put in a weekend or a 60 hour week to hit a deadline, he'd see me right and I'd get time back later or when I needed it. If you've ever needed time off to manage around a serious family health issue you can image the value of that.

To me, formalised flexitime is a big company solution and the problem is policing the system for everyone just to control the 2% of shirkers that weak line management are too scared to sack. You don't have that problem. You don't need big company formality. Just keep it fair and keep it transparent. If you can let "Joe" come in half an hour late so he can take his kid to school on the way to work, then be ready to do something similar for your other people.

Good on you for trying out something new !

 

[lurker]

We used to look forward to particular managers going on holiday.
As we got more real work done and made decisions about changes.
"It was urgent and we could not wait until you returned to benefit from you input".
or
"Have you been away then? I'd not noticed"

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I remember a week years ago when all three bosses went on holiday at the same time (not well planned). We got more work finished in that week than any week before or after.

I suspect the problem with the sort of change you're thinking of is that with a couple of months they'll be doing the same per hour as they do now. It could be easier to plan overtime though - they work til Friday lunchtime as a routine but are expected to do the afternoon as overtime when needs must.

 

[Inspector]

I had nearly a one hour commute each way and was able to work four ten hour days each week and have every Friday off for a number of years. Loved it but then new managers changed it back to five days a week and I hated it. When on the four day week I would come in for full shift of OT if needed a few times a month. When back on the five day shift I wouldn't because there wasn't enough time off. They would even suggest coming in for half a day on a Saturday and I wouldn't because of the two hours in the car made the four hours not attractive. I guess I was one of those bad employees.

While I like the shorter work week, coming in for four hours especially with a long commute, wouldn't be as attractive as what another company down the road did. They took every other Friday off. Four day week followed by a five. You still worked the same but drove less and had the some of the time off in bigger chunks to do things with. If that would work with your business it could work better for you and your employees. If you have enough people then you could split them in half so every Friday was still covered for the whole day.

Pete

 

[tony_s]

The manager/ proprietor wants the workers to do as much as possible for as little as possible (profit-wise). The worker wants to do as little as possible for as much as possible (ditto). You can dress it up any way you want but, really, you're just decieving yourself.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong and I wish you well dr bob, but you may be making a rod for your own back

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The manager/ proprietor wants the workers to do as much as possible for as little as possible (profit-wise). The worker wants to do as little as possible for as much as possible (ditto).

That's true - up to a point. However, the manager/proprietor wants to make a profit in order to make a living and pay the bills. The employees want to make enough in wages to make a living an pay the bills. (If both then manage more than just 'enough', so much the better.) The manager/employee contract is therefore at least in some part mutually beneficial - it has to be, or it wouldn't work at all.

Anything that makes life a bit pleasanter without affecting either the manager's or the employees' take-home is almost certainly beneficial. There's more to life than just money, after all.

 

[thetyreman]

I think this is a step forwards personally, it will improve productivity if your workers are happier, you have a moral responsibility to look after them, it's just a shame that more bosses don't do things like this or at least have the balls to try it out, you sound like a decent boss to work for drbob =D>

 

[HappyHacker]

I think this is a step forwards personally, it will improve productivity if your workers are happier, you have a moral responsibility to look after them, it's just a shame that more bosses don't do things like this or at least have the balls to try it out, you sound like a decent boss to work for drbob =D>

The only problem is that there are too many numptys out there who will take advantage of any one that tries to act decently. While they are not in the majority there are enough of them to make things difficult. Having a good team sprit helps immensely as the team will make it very uncomfortable for anyone not pulling their weight but the numptys usually manage to spoil any team sprit to their advantage.

 

[doctor Bob]

The only problem is that there are too many numptys out there who will take advantage of any one that tries to act decently. While they are not in the majority there are enough of them to make things difficult. Having a good team sprit helps immensely as the team will make it very uncomfortable for anyone not pulling their weight but the numptys usually manage to spoil any team sprit to their advantage.

This is why I'm really trying to make a workshop where the perks are very hard to leave behind. I've employed numpties in the past and it's hard work. Try and hang on to good staff.

 

[Trevanion]

Fewer hours, probably better pay, breakfast on a Thursday, leaving early on a Friday!? When can I start? :lol:

After my first apprenticeship placement shut down, For a short time (about 3 months or so) I worked in a joinery workshop (they claimed it to be a factory which was laughable) of about 10 people or so and the environment was purely toxic. Firstly the main boss was a real hot-head and was very easily made very angry, he has a bit of a local reputation for throwing hammers... This really didn't help since when people made a mistake things tended to get hidden or covered up to avoid the backlash and the quality and structural integrity of the product was greatly diminished (I saw a door tenon cut off completely and just glued back into place when the door was put together). The second in command was a right nonce who thought he was high and above everyone and just constantly talked down at people (except he was shorter than everyone else :lol, He'd get seriously narky if you were clocking off at the proper time and berated you to stay that little bit longer to get a job done, which usually ended up upwards of an hour extra per day plus being called in to work Saturday and usually the Sunday as well. You'd also better watch out if you were caught talking during work time! I remember when they had taken on a new employee for the painting, the other more experienced guy was explaining to him how to do it and was taking his time since they fella was a bit slow to comprehend and the main boss ran over and started giving them hell for talking on the job instead of working, which then set him off on a tangent of pretty much going around everyone in the workshop and trying to find something to pick on. When tea and lunchtime rolled around everyone just went into their cars and ate in solitary, there was no "team spirit" so to speak, even after 3 months I barely knew anyone really, didn't know where they lived, what they were interested in, etc... So after 3 months of all that I decided enough was enough, gave them a piece of my mind and walked out. Then I had the main boss pleading at me on my doorstep asking me to come back etc, etc.... (that was apparently the first time he's ever done that with anyone :?) which I did for about 3 days, after which his girlfriend called me into the office decided she would absolutely have a go at me while he wasn't around and started calling me a coward and a troublemaker and all other forms of insults. I had enough so I packed up my stuff and left, 50+ hours a week at £5 an hour wasn't worth all that stress and hassle. I was told in 3 years about 100 members of staff had come and gone, which is quite an accomplishment for a very rural joinery workshop really. Having met quite a few people that have been through their doors they seriously missed out on some seriously motivated and skilled workers which if they had treated right they would probably still be working there making good money for everyone involved.

On one hand, I now look at it as a character-building experience and it has taught me to appreciate working elsewhere very much more. On the other hand, if I had gone their first I would've been put off joinery for life (Like many others were I imagine) and I would probably be bricklaying now. Fortunately, that didn't happen and since then I've been steadily chipping away at their business ever since, revenge is slow, but sweet :twisted:.

Bob's got it right, look after the boys and girls and they'll look after you. If someones treating me right I'll bend over backward to do whatever they want me to get done even if it involves working a bit extra at the end of the day unpaid to get it sorted for the following morning, simple really. If they feel like they're being shanked they'll adjust accordingly and end up shanking you more. A good team that works well together is priceless.

 

[beech1948]

The problem with managers in big companies is that they are selected for some strange reasons. Getting maximum productivity is not one of those reasons. So the issue is that all as in ALL managers need to be sent back to school/college/uni to learn how to motivate, encourage and how to drop the elitist approach.

I've worked for some pretty stupid people myself.

What I find strange is that few people understand productivity, finished output and how to reward it. Dr Bob excluded from this.

Aged 40 I left my secure job, started my own company and went from there to some success. One joy was weeding out the useless managers when they wanted work and refusing to employ them.

 

[transatlantic]

The better managers are the ones that have worked their way up through the roles that they are actually managing.

The worst are the ones that go straight into managerial positions because they studied it in college.

 

[Trevanion]

The better managers are the ones that have worked their way up through the roles that they are actually managing.

The worst are the ones that go straight into managerial positions because they studied it in college.

Never a more true statement. The same applies to many high-up jobs such as architects, there are many excellent architects who know exactly what they're talking about and are very experienced (There's one notable example on this forum ). But there are also quite a lot who have got the piece of paper (or none if they call themselves something other than architect) but are absolutely useless, coming up with totally impossible plans which a regular builder could see from a mile away just isn't possible, coming up with something massively over-budget just because they "Thought it looked best" and they end up having to re-design at the customers cost, and generally not understanding how the trades work. A lot of them could do with a couple of years experience on-site, exactly the same how managers could do with a couple of years of doing the job first before running the place.

The college I went to had a pretty good set-up where if you did your 3 year apprenticeship you could go onto doing a fourth year doing a construction managerial diploma which involved the employer taking on another apprentice that you managed in your fourth year. After this year you could go onto university and do pretty much any construction-related degree you wanted like architecture without going to sixth-form and doing loads of A-levels and then onto college doing another diploma etc... All while you were earning money while you were doing the running up to it as well and you had the experience under your belt that the other entrants just wouldn't have.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

The better managers are the ones that have worked their way up through the roles that they are actually managing.
The worst are the ones that go straight into managerial positions because they studied it in college.

My father and his partner had a decent sized building firm in the '60s and early '70s, and they went with the flow and started to employ graduate site managers. Within twelve months all their site managers were once again their best chippies and masons.
My sister worked for Hewlett Packard In NZ, and travelled OZ, Singapore and other places for them. She worked in a department of 24 people developing health service software. She went self employed afterwards earning good money - c. £150,000 - twice what she earned with them - and said it was hardly surprising the business hit the doldrums as she was the only person out of the twenty four who actually had any medical knowledge. There were brilliant people there - but they were brilliant at the wrong things.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

An acquaintance some years ago worked in a yarn factory. One day his new manager told him to put certain type of synthetic through a particular machine. I can't do that, it won't work, he said. What'll happen? It'll blow the machine up. It won't. I've beeen working these machines for years, and I'm telling you it will. It won't, and as your superior I'm telling you to to get on with it. OK .......... I will ............ if you put your request in writing. This he duly did, so the machine was started. After several minutes it blew up. This was tens of thousands of pounds worth of gear, even in the late '60s.
Some while afterwards they were chatting about qualifications and someone asked the manager exactly what his degree was in - he replied that it was in ecclesiastical history. :?

 

[lurker]

I worked for a medium sized high tech engineering company, where you could not be a manager unless you were chartered (to be chartered you have to demonstrate experience as well as qualifications). We had great team spirit and the company was considered to be among the best in the business (contracting and Consulting) and we were all earning a shed load in bonuses .
Then we got bought out by "the" big boy.
Their managers were great with a spread sheet but hopeless with their subordinates. The bonuses dried up within 6 months.
I stuck it for 4 more years and then grabbed early retirement.
They are still going but only due to handouts from the parent company.