Work so hard you cripple yourself

[selectortone]

I'm finding it hard to feel sorry for James Dyson who scuttled off to Singapore and is now one of the biggest 'farmers'* in the UK.

*If you can call buying up farmland as a means of avoiding tax 'farming'.

 

[redhunter350]

How old are you, are you in good h

Yes Artie in good health and very lucky at 80 ! as I said things are MUCH heavier now

 

[RobinBHM]

Before anyone suggests that both parents would be unlikely to die at the same time, a will from the first to die could easily pass "their half" of the farm to the beneficiary/ies - after all, we are specifically discussing "generational" farming.)

If it l structured like other IHT, then the allowance is passed to the surviving spouse

 

[Jacob]

It is difficult to know whether the water companies have done a good job or not

No it's easy. Just follow the news.

...

As a nationalised enterprise, delivery failings and funding are far less transparent. If proven incapable of regulation (it is not just water) then I doubt their capacity to do any better with all the resources directly under state control.

That's just ideology speaking and flies in the face of common sense.

 

[RobinBHM]

Brexit was caused by Bliar completed under Cameron (Sadly

Brexit was a Conservative clusterfork

Brexit only happened because Cameron stupidly put a referendum in his manifesto without any thought to setting restrictions like a super majority.

Cameron did it because he believed Brexit would fail and it would kill off the ERG nutters and Farage.

It’s no good you blaming Blair, this is 100% on the Tories

Mind you it’s slightly amusing that Brexit has destroyed the Conservative Party, it’s burnt through 5 Tory PMs and it’s allowed Farage to compete for the racist votes.

 

[RobinBHM]

As a nationalised enterprise, delivery failings and funding are far less transparent

I rather doubt the sovereign wealth funds that seem to own our main services are transparent in any way.

Thames waters new CEO was head of Ofwat FFS. Transparency my arris

Your are clearly ideologically in favour of private enterprise, but you have to ask yourself do you seriously think foreign ownership of British infrastructure is in our interests?

Our railways are state owned….the French state, the German state. It’s a joke

 

[Terry - Somerset]

No it's easy. Just follow the news.

That's just ideology speaking and flies in the face of common sense.

Your faith in the public sector is touching.

Nothing to see at the Post Office, infected blood scandal, numerous NHS cover ups, countless project over-runs (HS2, London Olympics, etc etc etc).

No doubt all these failures are the fault of private sector subcontractors - even though contracts were agreed and managed by the public sector.

You really should accept that the public and private sectors have strengths and weaknesses. They should be encouraged to learn from each other, not assume a dogma driven superiority of one over the other.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I rather doubt the sovereign wealth funds that seem to own our main services are transparent in any way.

Thames waters new CEO was head of Ofwat FFS. Transparency my arris

Your are clearly ideologically in favour of private enterprise, but you have to ask yourself do you seriously think foreign ownership of British infrastructure is in our interests?

Our railways are state owned….the French state, the German state. It’s a joke

Through the regulator (energy, water, rail, etc) the government seek to manage service delivery. They have unambiguously failed. To assert they would do a whole lot better if they also had control of service delivery is IMHO an assumption too far.

 

[Jacob]

Your faith in the public sector is touching.

Nothing to see at the Post Office, infected blood scandal, numerous NHS cover ups, countless project over-runs (HS2, London Olympics, etc etc etc).

These were all cock-ups under the tories. Run down public services, sell them off, make loadsamoney.
Post office is particularly tragic. It used to be one of the most prominent buildings and well used service in towns and villages throughout UK, bigger than banks, supermarkets etc. Now it's shrunk to a little counter at the back of a discount store, with a bad tempered assistant. The management have paid themselves huge amounts in bonuses whilst screwing the workforce to the point of suicide and running a diminished and inefficient service. Tory policy in a nutshell.

No doubt all these failures are the fault of private sector subcontractors - even though contracts were agreed and managed by the public sector.

You really should accept that the public and private sectors have strengths and weaknesses.

I do. It's the ideological dogma-driven tories who don't. Maybe you don't read the Telegraph or the Mail?

They should be encouraged to learn from each other, not assume a dogma driven superiority of one over the other.

I agree.

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

These were all cock-ups under the tories. Run down public services, sell them off, make loadsamoney.
Post office is particularly tragic. It used to be one of the most prominent buildings and well used service in towns and villages throughout UK, bigger than banks, supermarkets etc. Now it's shrunk to a little counter at the back of a discount store, with a bad tempered assistant. The management have paid themselves huge amounts in bonuses whilst screwing the workforce to the point of suicide and running a diminished and inefficient service. Tory policy in a nutshell.

I do. It's the ideological dogma-driven tories who don't. Maybe you don't read the Telegraph or the Mail?

I agree.

I think the fundamental point about Public Services either being Publicly Owned or Privately Owned is about something slightly different.

Nobody has ever, EVER said that Public Services would be run "better" in Public Ownership. However, the move to Private ownership was always about making things "more efficient, better and cheaper" because "market forces" and "competition within the market place" blah blah ideological nonsense.

The thing is that WE - ie the Nation - should not turn our Critical National Infrastructure over to Private Ownership because then it will simply be used to generate profit and to hang with the effectiveness of the Service and keep the prices up to feed the generation of profit. Profit above everything else. I could see that clearly as a teenager and I have no idea why nobody else cannot see it as clearly:

Private Ownership:

can run the service up to a level "A", make customers pay "£x", and extract "£y" in profit. (I won't even go into the likelihood of tax being avoided on that "£y" profit)
- £x minus £y = £z is how much is spent on running the service

Public Ownership:

Can easily be configured to run the service up to the same level "A" and at a cost of "£z", therefore saving the Public "£y" overall due to no requirement to extract profit from the cycle.
- Even if there's flab in the system due to the raving righty screaming that Publicly Run Services are always inefficient - it can still go overbudget by "£y" and still be no worse off fro the consumer - ie the Public.


I refute that Public Ownership always implies inefficiency - just peek over the fence at France, Germany - both State owned railways, for instance - both models of efficient, effective and inexpensive transport networks (and which are being subsidised by UK taxpayers).

Critical National Infrastructure does not belong in the hands of Private Ownership. That may sound like an ideology - but it isn't really - it's a necessity to support the Economy in which a Capitalist industrial complex can thrive. Everything is interconnected. Transport is a fundamental requirement for a mobile work force. Health is required for a fit and healthy work force. Etc...

 

[Jacob]

....

Nobody has ever, EVER said that Public Services would be run "better" in Public Ownership.

Many public services would not be run "at all" by private enterprise.

However, the move to Private ownership was always about making things "more efficient, better and cheaper" because "market forces" and "competition within the market place" blah blah ideological nonsense.

Market forces say maximise profits. "Efficiency" is just a detail. Quality of product is another - cheaper, lower quality, obsolescence, tend to be more profitable, not to mention processed, adulterated foods.
Interesting that the Luddites were concerned not only about "efficiency" doing them out of work, but also the lower quality of the product. Guilds and early unions were concerned about maintaining standards and craft skills.

...........

Critical National Infrastructure does not belong in the hands of Private Ownership. That may sound like an ideology - but it isn't really - it's a necessity to support the Economy in which a Capitalist industrial complex can thrive. Everything is interconnected. Transport is a fundamental requirement for a mobile work force. Health is required for a fit and healthy work force. Etc...

It's common sense. Can't have public services run by gamblers and speculators - look at the housing situation - the private sector and the state failing to provide this basic necessity.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

These were all cock-ups under the tories. Run down public services, sell them off, make loadsamoney.
Post office is particularly tragic. It used to be one of the most prominent buildings and well used service in towns and villages throughout UK, bigger than banks, supermarkets etc. Now it's shrunk to a little counter at the back of a discount store, with a bad tempered assistant. The management have paid themselves huge amounts in bonuses whilst screwing the workforce to the point of suicide and running a diminished and inefficient service. Tory policy in a nutshell.

Completely wrong.

Post Office new system started in 1999 at the beginning of the Labour government.

Their current woes arise because they failed utterly to adapt to an age where services traditionally provided went on line - car tax and registration, pension payments, passports, parcel services, driving licences etc etc etc. The writing was on the wall 25 years ago!

Infected blood scandal started in the 1970s covering Labour and Tory governments. It was Mrs May (a Tory) who initiated the public enquiry in 2017.

London Olympics - bid submitted 2005, 3 times over budget by the time the event took place.

HS2 first proposed in 2009 at a cost of £37bn. At least 3 times over budget. Don't know why it wasn't cancelled in 2010!

Not remotely suggesting the Tories are free of blame - the really distressing part of all this is a failure of both governments to take decisive action when a problem emerges.

 

[Jacob]

Completely wrong.

Post Office new system started in 1999 at the beginning of the Labour government.

Blair was a Thatcherite and timid neo liberal. He went with the flow, a BS merchant, not having enough talent or imagination to promote difficult or interesting alternatives.
I think our Keith might do a better job - no talent or imagination but also no ideology, just a competent civil servant, if we are lucky.
He did tell a lot of lies though, to get the leadership.
But he may have another agenda and his support for the Israeli genocide is very suspect, not least because it isn't even a vote winner - popular support is strongly behind the Palestinians.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Popular support is strongly behind the Palestinians? Only in your mind.

 

[Scruples]

Brexit was a Conservative clusterfork

Brexit only happened because Cameron stupidly put a referendum in his manifesto without any thought to setting restrictions like a super majority.

Cameron did it because he believed Brexit would fail and it would kill off the ERG nutters and Farage.

It’s no good you blaming Blair, this is 100% on the Tories

Mind you it’s slightly amusing that Brexit has destroyed the Conservative Party, it’s burnt through 5 Tory PMs and it’s allowed Farage to compete for the racist votes.

Brexit didn't destroy the Tories. That's a false narrative. The pandemic brought about the Tory downfall. It wouldn't have mattered who was at the helm at the time, they would have lost the next election because a good many people, in their grief and anger at the pandemic, focussed that anger on the government.

No matter how many died or how much was spent, there were enough disconsolate voters out there to flip the voting.

I would suggest, as previous electoral history has demonstrated, that in four years time the electorate will have realised how bad the Labour party are and revert to voting for the Tories again.

 

[RobinBHM]

To assert they would do a whole lot better if they also had control of service delivery is IMHO an assumption too far.

Evidence shows nationally owned is betted than private.

Why?

A = because the state owns the infrastructure.

Terry do you think it’s better to own your house or do you think it would better if you flogged it to a sovereign wealth fund in Qatar and rented it from them?

Terry do you accept that private businesses are run in the interests of shareholders not customers?

Terry if you are making the case for privatisation please explain why water companies have paid out £75b in dividends and are now asking customers for massive rises in bills

 

[Scruples]

Evidence shows nationally owned is betted than private.

Why?

A = because the state owns the infrastructure.

Terry do you think it’s better to own your house or do you think it would better if you flogged it to a sovereign wealth fund in Qatar and rented it from them?

Terry do you accept that private businesses are run in the interests of shareholders not customers?

Terry if you are making the case for privatisation please explain why water companies have paid out £75b in dividends and are now asking customers for massive rises in bills

I worked, for many years, in a local electricty board. It wasn't efficient, even to my young and innocent eyes. The boards did a lot for the customers but the costs and the restrictive practices were legion. Pay was kept low. I compare that to the modern day electricity companies and I think, on balance, the modern way is better.

Interesting take on privatisation though.

We'll skip over the railway infrastructure being nationally owned because it made sense to have it centrally managed and controlled by the state.

If a private citizen sells their home to a foreign company then that is between the seller and the buyer. Should the seller wish to rent back the house, it would be for financial benefit, i.e. lump sum and no maintenance costs etc. In the cases of utility and rail companies the state put out requests for companies to tender for them, as contracts with provisos. I'm not sure that Qatar actually own any of the utility or railway companies, do they?

Are businesses run in the interst of the shareholders or customers? The answer would be, idealistically, both. The utility companies were hived off because the government of the time, decided to shift the deteriorating infrastructure costs they didn't want; the costs or the angst from the public.

The companies that took on the challenge had to seek investors/shareholders who would supply the funding to carry out significant improvements for an annual return. The returns, judging by their values, indicate huge investment values. I think that answers your last two statements.

I'm not defending, or attacking, the governments or private companies who could lose their contracts if found to be performing badly as we have already witnessed with a rail company. This is just as I see it. This is how business works and how business is global rather than parochial.

 

[RobinBHM]

Brexit didn't destroy the Tories. That's a false narrative

Brexit did destroy the Tories.

Cameron resigned
Theresa May spent her time fighting the ERG and got the boot

The only way to get the Brexit con through was to put a liar in charge….so Boris Johnson turned the Tories into a right wing populist party and the 2019 intake were chosen purely for their ability to support a policy that was a con.

The Tory party made a complete disaster of covid because it used the pandemic for opportunistic corruption to line the pockets of Tory MPs and their mates.

I would suggest, as previous electoral history has demonstrated, that in four years time the electorate will have realised how bad the Labour party are and revert to voting for the Tories again.

Example of pure tribalism.

What you actually mean is “I hope the electorate will have forgotten how appallingly bad the Tories were for 14 years”

By the way previous electoral history shows that the public voted for Blair 3x all with massive majorities.

The Tories are the worlds most successful political party….but that doesn’t mean they do good things for the people, it’s just that people are persuaded to vote against their best interests.

The Tories have been in power most of the last 50 years and this country is in a terrible terrible state…..our politics has failed the people of this country very badly, both Tories and Labour are to blame, but mostly the Tories as they have had the power most of the time.

You may disagree, but the data shows the U.K. has a far lower standard of living compared to other similar economies and far lower public services.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Brexit did destroy the Tories.

No, Johnson post 2019 destroyed the Tories. They didn't even attempt to do what they promised to do.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... it’s just that people are persuaded to vote against their best interests.

Maybe some people vote for what they think best for the Country and not for who'll give them most.