Work so hard you cripple yourself

[Croolis]

This article reminds me of the old phrase 'beatings will continue until morale improves'

How long until warehouse work is fully automated though? I gather 'dark warehouses' are springing up all over Europe.

I think this might be a good time to open a discussion about a basic universal wage given to every adult over 18 . Sooner or later, there's more automated jobs than people. The argument that more jobs of just a different type will get created and simply replace the lost jobs I think holds no water at all. My job, for example, will likely be toast before I get to retirement age and I'll end up just like those old boys that I laid off. Can't wait. Should have been a plumber, a spark, some kind of tradesman delivering services to the domestic sector. Those sort of jobs can't be replaced by robots easily, AI and robotics won't be that good for an extremely long time. But how many jobs like that can one society contain?

But things will become problematic sooner than that. We'll all need free money. I wonder if capitalist ideals of constant economic growth will last more than 5 minutes as soon as folks begin to realise that, for the vast bulk of the population, there's nowhere to go with their aspiration.

The rich folks will likely have us all gassed and used as fertiliser for their vinyards before you can say Ayn Rand.

 

[Tris]

Personally I think a universal wage, tied to activity providing a social good or ongoing training/education, and tapered according to earnings would be a great idea.
How to fund it is a whole other argument though

 

[deema]

I'd respectfully suggest you are confusing things and in doing so undoing your own argument as age is a protected characteristic.

Well, I can’t remember if your a legal beaver, but the advise was provided by Eversheds and specifically their HR team. I had to use Eversheds as the company was listed in the New York Stock-exchange and we had to be seen to be using one of the top five legal firms. I’m going back 8 years now, and one thing I know is that the legal HR rules just get more convoluted as we have every ruling and never gets back to what is common sense.

Age is a protected characteristic that works both ways. You cannot ask a younger person to do a job that’s hard physical work and discriminate against them by allowing the oldies to do the lighter work. We already did job rotation to ease the burden but we were no longer able to utilise the custom and practice of giving the ‘old man’ jobs to those who served us well for decades.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Well, I can’t remember if your a legal beaver, but the advise was provided by Eversheds and specifically their HR team. I had to use Eversheds as the company was listed in the New York Stock-exchange and we had to be seen to be using one of the top five legal firms. I’m going back 8 years now, and one thing I know is that the legal HR rules just get more convoluted as we have every ruling and never gets back to what is common sense.

Age is a protected characteristic that works both ways. You cannot ask a younger person to do a job that’s hard physical work and discriminate against them by allowing the oldies to do the lighter work. We already did job rotation to ease the burden but we were no longer able to utilise the custom and practice of giving the ‘old man’ jobs to those who served us well for decades.

Perhaps you have forgotten some of the detail of their advice if it was 8 years ago. Fundamentally though the "customer and practice" that you describe in the last sentence is discriminatory even if your intentions as an employer were altruistic.

Another way to look at it is that the Equality Act removed the ability of an employer to force people to retire at a certain age but the employer retains the right to still expect a full contribution from them. Arguably therefore it balances the position of the employer and employee.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

This was titled as "Government supporting the economy", but seems to fit in the thread

The next one is a fine example of where employment is headed for "everyone else"...

 

[Spectric]

Old age will get everyone sooner or later providing they live long enough and in some jobs why not use the older people with the skills and experience to teach these skills to others. Even an old bricklayer can teach because he will not be expected to do a hard days graft building a complete wall, just demonstrate how to lay bricks and layout corners etc. What you don't want is really old fireman because some jobs are going to be physical and there is no way round it but then they do get a pension at a younger age.

 

[heimlaga]

I have come across men in their 70-ies and one man in his early 80-ies doing onsite carpentry or bricklaying. However they have all been specialists doing the more advanced jobs few others could do. Where managers had a simple choice. Let the old men do it their way at their pace or wait 11 months and pay three times more for a speciality contractor coming from abroad for the job only to prove his unability and leave it half finished.
Run of the mill construction work is so specialised today and so hard on the body that men get physically worn out in their 40-ies. Even in Finland where unions are way more powerful and workers have way more rights than in UK or Australia. A human body just cannot hang drywall or tie rebar day in and day out without severe damage.

Myself I am 43 and doing speciality work onsite. Still considered a youngster by most who do what I do. Plodding along at my own pace using my own tools because no employer owns the required tools. Marvelling at the madhouse around me.
In Österbotten we have an old tradition that a skilled specialist worker is an equal of the manager. With the difference that the worker is responsible for getting the job done and the manager is responsible for the financial part while both depend on the other for a livelyhood.
Only a few weeks ago I had to teach a big city manager a bit of a lesson. His greatest worry was that I was too slow and too expensive and didn't behave quite as expected. While I calmly pointed out that he and his subcontractor had deliberately chosen to make me spend 11 weeks on an 8 or possibly 9 week project through inefficient management and formal hindrances and delayed deliveries of materials and lack of lifting help. He looked a bit funny. I said I am from Österbotten where we are equals.

 

[Ed Weber]

Well, when I first read the article, I didn't think ageism or poorly written regulations or a political party. All I got from it was corporate greed, pure and simple. Boiling every task down to an assigned amount of time with no leeway for anything other than the task.
Nothing more than a modern workhouse. I'm sure when the robots take over, everything will be fine.

 

[TRITON]

Wow imagine having to lift 18kg. 1cwt cement bags was work.

Normal for us butchers to move beef in the form of a forequarter-weighing about 120lbs or a hind quarter-weighing about 150lbs from the suppliers van to the chill and from the chill to the block.

Damn greasy to get any sort of grip on, and you needed to get it on to your shoulder, resting against the side of your face, to be able to balance the weight.
Going from the van into the chill, it needs to be readjusted so you can hold it out in front of you to try to get it onto a swiveling hook that you cannot actually see.

You need to be sure of foot and have good upper body strength to be able to manhandle it and readjust your grip without losing that grip and dropping the damn thing.

At the time i was doing this I could probably lift about 100lbs above my head with arms locked. Today i'd struggle to lift a 1/3 of that

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Get old and physical capability is diminished.

It happens to all - timing and extent of deterioration may be a function of diet, exercise, genetics etc.

If you can't do the job, move on.

No employer should be required to pay for someone who can't perform. This relates as much to management or technical roles as those requiring physical attributes.

More far sighted employers may see benefits in retaining experienced staff in other roles - training, quality control etc. Age and poor performance issues should be handled with sensitivity.

 

[Chris152]

https://www.myhrdept.co.uk/latest_news/my-older-employee-is-not-performing-what-can-i-do/

 

[Chris152]

More far sighted employers may see benefits in retaining experienced staff in other roles - training, quality control etc. Age and poor performance issues should be handled with sensitivity.

https://www.myhrdept.co.uk/latest_news/my-older-employee-is-not-performing-what-can-i-do/

 

[Amplidyne]

Normal for us butchers to move beef in the form of a forequarter-weighing about 120lbs or a hind quarter-weighing about 150lbs from the suppliers van to the chill and from the chill to the block.

Damn greasy to get any sort of grip on, and you needed to get it on to your shoulder, resting against the side of your face, to be able to balance the weight.
Going from the van into the chill, it needs to be readjusted so you can hold it out in front of you to try to get it onto a swiveling hook that you cannot actually see.

You need to be sure of foot and have good upper body strength to be able to manhandle it and readjust your grip without losing that grip and dropping the damn thing.

At the time i was doing this I could probably lift about 100lbs above my head with arms locked. Today i'd struggle to lift a 1/3 of that

When I was in my 30s, I was doing a fair bit of house renovations, both my own and other people's. In those days, as you probably remember, cement came in hundredweight bags. Around 50kg.
Used to throw them about no problem. We were always loading and unloading them. I had a LWB Landy, and used to get a load on there if we were short.

Anyway, there was a bag over from some job in the 90s, and it got left in the back corner of the garage and forgotten.

Come forward to around 2010, and I was having a clear out. I found the bag. Tried to pick it up, and thought it had stuck to the floor!

I just hadn't been doing that sort of work, and I was quite a bit older of course.

 

[Croolis]

https://www.myhrdept.co.uk/latest_news/my-older-employee-is-not-performing-what-can-i-do/

Urrrgh. My HR Department. <gag> .

 

[Rewound]

Woolworths ?

I remember them - did we send them to Aus or did they go all by themselves?

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Woolworths ?

I remember them - did we send them to Aus or did they go all by themselves?

As I understand, Woolworths in the UK closed its doors in 2009. Woolworths in Australia may have been introduced by Woolworths in South Africa, which is a separate concern started in 1931 (I went to university in the late 1970's with one of the grandsons of the founder). Woolworths remains a major orperation in South Africa and Australia.

Working hard is not simple about the physical. I am 74 and have been in full time practice as a clinical psychologist for 45 years putting in 11-hours days (I cut back to a 4-day week 4 years ago). This requires both mental and physical fitness. The effort to sustain focus throughout the day in face-to-face interactions is draining. Sitting is a huge factor in RSI, especially back and neck problems. While woodworking is my therapy ... a time to switch off ... I have always maintained a very physical lifestyle, engaging in competitive sports until 55 years and since then just daily running. If I stopped, it would be downhill. Burnout among my colleagues is a constant and immense ongoing threat. Many cannot sustain the pace and either work minimal hours or part-time, or change profession.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[gregmcateer]

Voice of experience speaking there I see.

Yeah, who do the young think they are? Complaining at being paid minimum wage with little or no job security? Picking up a second job as a delivery driver to boost their income. Scroungers. We used to pay our boss for the privilege of working. I'm not 60 yet and I wouldn't dream of doing a day's work

 

[Chris152]

 

[Sam Kilby]

I teach furnituremaking in a college. In my first year hand skills cohort, I have a massive strata of students, including those with physical Disabilities, those with special educational needs, mental health issues, really bright young people who attained top grades for their GCSEs.
My role is to make sure everyone is learning and progressing. This looks different for everyone, with me having to differentiate tasks. Some students, 7 weeks in are capable now of turning out air tight dovetails and are experimenting with different types, to extend and challenge them. They are the kinds of students who can take a long demonstration, apply prior knowledge to it and just run with it.
Other students are still working on single much more broken down tasks, for example use a square to mark a line properly on a piece of timber. Most are still trying hard and applying themselves, and if they appear not to be it is often due to significant issues that they struggle with, for example ADHD.
The goals should be set as a percentage improvement over a current baseline figure, which is measured per individual.
In my example, the brightest or most physically able would produce something like 100 tasks per unit of time, the ones who are hampered would produce something like 25. I suppose at some point you have to ensure there is something available for the top achievers to progress on to, additional training or responsibilities.

 

[RobinBHM]

My sister had problems with it in the mid - late '70s .................. under Labour.

most of the last 40+ years has been under Tory power

hows that working out?