Woodworking Dust and COPD

[Random Orbital Bob]

versaflow is the dogs.
BUT.............although I could have a versaflow system for free, I use Trend Airshield that I paid for.

The way you say that is as if you have some professional inside knowledge of it's performance, which given your profession is highly likely. Can you share that ie be more specific about why it's good?

Also, just being nosy so feel free to tell me to butt out but......why, if you can get a free one don't you?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

It is the one that Glenn Lucas uses....very posh Chas!! Look here at 49 seconds in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyBjqfq ... -qJB3viEWY

Amazing to watch someone with that level of "flow" with a gouge. I take it he's pretty good!

I'd love to stump up for the VersaFlow, but I have (a love/hate relationship with) the Trend AirShield. It's well priced and works superbly; it's just a bit heavy and cumbersome and I've gotten through more headbands than I can now recall (and I'm currently on what I believe is the third version of their headband design - having broken my way through the other two).

Whilst I don't have a way of measuring workshop dust levels, one of the biggest differences I've found was from installing a workshop air filter (which I've set up to vent outside).

I tend to work using the Airshield, then do a thorough clean up using a Festool vac that has a Oneida cyclone in front (and is fitted with a HEPA filter), then leave the air filter running for an hour. The big difference I noticed is in the dust smell when I return to the workshop after a lot of cutting - even from just leaving the filter running for 1 hour after I finish.

I figure the filter must be taking a lot of the airbourne dust out, as I don't get the flu-like sensitivity symptoms if I go back in and do some handtool work.

Glenn Lucas is indeed known as a competent turner. Bowls are his thing, his business in Ireland specialise in salad bowls from native timbers which he produces in quite considerable quantity. He also has a dedicated training environment in a purpose built outbuilding. I've yet to meet him but our club has a bunch of his training DVD's and he's clearly a very warm hearted and affable chap and I would venture also an excellent tutor.

 

[joethedrummer]

Just to be clear, I would never suggest that breathing in dust is harmless. Extraction and protection ie masks are so easy to obtain and relatively cheap it would be bonkers not to use them, I was just responding to Bob's specific question about Copd.

Yes I got that Woody and I thought your response was an excellent one ie it was evidence based. That's not to poo poo the anecdotal messages about valuing your lungs from the other contributors, I also share the view about only having one pair of lungs. But I was interested to see if there was a known and proven connection to COPD (ie not anecdotal).

My setup is a little half baked in many respects and oscillates between vacuum type machines dedicated to major dust producers like the planar/thicknesser and personal gear like a Trend airshield and the trusty 3M 7500 which I live in when sanding dry turnings (with the vac DX on)

The fine dust produced in turning is I think the most risky in my setup and I've been toying with getting one of those cylindrical Microclene filters that most turners hang at around head height.

My Father also died of lung cancer at 59 (an age I'm rapidly approaching) although in fairness he was smoking woodbines in the trenches in WWII. Apparently they make senior service look like fresh air!

Hi dustmakers,
My, also half baked, setup has a wetanddry vac sucking from the bed area under the llathe bar through a cyclone and I normally wear
a 3M dust mask; but to get on with the story; I got a microlene which I hang around head height near the working area and now find a LOT of dust on its filter whjch I now realise I filtered with my lungs previously.
Microlene equals good idea and you keep the heat in the shop.
,,,,joe,,,

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

This thread has turned up some interesting facts. Lurker, your professional take on this stuff is really useful, I hadn't realised we had a guru amongst us and that really helps.

My Father died of lung cancer in 1983 and was a very keen woodworker. However, as I've already said, he smoked all his life and there's no question in my mind that was the primary cause. I often wonder however if the combination of a sticky coating of tar lining the bronchioles made the inhalation of wood dust all the worse. With the usual tiny hairs in the tubes which catch particles and eject them through sneezing or mucus out of action due to the tar he must have been at much greater risk. There was of course zero extraction and he even built a "table saw" out of Dexion framing, an old washing machine motor and a chipboard top. He frequently used elements of chipboard hidden in the carcasses of his projects because of course it was cheap.

When you consider the known respiratory hazards now compared to back then, it's a wonder anybody survived!

 

[tomatwark]

Like Sploo, and get a reaction to MDF although only the standard stuff and not MR, and also I find some makes of standard MDF are a lot worse than others, I guess it probably is the type of wood that is being used to make it that I am actually sensitive to.

And again this was caused when I was young and silly not taking enough care when using it.

The only time any standard MDF comes in to our workshops is if we are using veneered board.

We have dust pans and brooms in the workshop, but everything is hoovered first and the broom are just for getting the bits that are to big for the hoover.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Just to be clear, I would never suggest that breathing in dust is harmless. Extraction and protection ie masks are so easy to obtain and relatively cheap it would be bonkers not to use them, I was just responding to Bob's specific question about Copd.

Yes I got that Woody and I thought your response was an excellent one ie it was evidence based. That's not to poo poo the anecdotal messages about valuing your lungs from the other contributors, I also share the view about only having one pair of lungs. But I was interested to see if there was a known and proven connection to COPD (ie not anecdotal).

My setup is a little half baked in many respects and oscillates between vacuum type machines dedicated to major dust producers like the planar/thicknesser and personal gear like a Trend airshield and the trusty 3M 7500 which I live in when sanding dry turnings (with the vac DX on)

The fine dust produced in turning is I think the most risky in my setup and I've been toying with getting one of those cylindrical Microclene filters that most turners hang at around head height.

My Father also died of lung cancer at 59 (an age I'm rapidly approaching) although in fairness he was smoking woodbines in the trenches in WWII. Apparently they make senior service look like fresh air!

Hi dustmakers,
My, also half baked, setup has a wetanddry vac sucking from the bed area under the llathe bar through a cyclone and I normally wear
a 3M dust mask; but to get on with the story; I got a microlene which I hang around head height near the working area and now find a LOT of dust on its filter whjch I now realise I filtered with my lungs previously.
Microlene equals good idea and you keep the heat in the shop.
,,,,joe,,,

And how often do you change the filters?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

This question is to Lurker specifically.

In your professional work, you must have a clear knowledge of the downside ie what diseases are the usual suspects to poor extraction. If it's generally in fact NOT COPD as this thread has uncovered, what ARE the nasty's we're all trying to avoid. Is it (in order of horror) nasal cancer, asthma, allergic responses (ie sinus sensitivities that are being widely reported here)?

What I'm trying to get to is specific, observable facts rather than anecdotal information. As I said I don't undervalue the anecdotal messages, but I still think we're a little light on hard facts.

 

[CHJ]

.....Before you spend money on more RPE look at your removal techniques.
.....

No brushes, use 100mm extractor hose vented outside for the bulk of the clean up followed by shop vac with reasonable filtration for the little nooks and crannies whilst still wearing PPE.
But familiarity obviously leads to carelessness and I got hit, might just have been routing around in the store shed or being too casual about contaminating stuff in my pockets such as a handkerchief after hand sanding, the lifting of the PPE to take a swig of coffee whilst fine stuff was in the air etc.

But as soon as the supermarket excursion is over today the shed is getting a blitz, smocks, two off, are both fabric which is not idea but they are going through a wash cycle today as are the fabric covers used to cover lathes against condensation and a debris curtain over the front of the lathe bench and everything likely to throw up disturbed dust is being subject to a damp wipe down starting with PPE.

But getting back to Rob's original basic question, how do we know if we are ingesting the dangerous stuff, I suppose we can only do whatever we can in the way of self protection, I know I only have to go into a store such as Yandles with freshly sawn Iroko to get a reaction if I get too near but that is no guide to ultra fine particle ingestion.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

wow you must be ultra sensitive to Iroko Chas.....parts per million type sensitive by the sounds of it. I guess it's on your banned list is it? No big loss in my view, personally I hate the stuff. Brittle, unkind on your tools, smells horrible. It's only saving grace is the oily nature for outdoor use and it can look quite nice. I always use Oak when doing outdoor things I might have used Iroko for.

 

[wallace]

My particular affliction is industrial rhinitis and sever sensitivity to anything remotely dusty. When people call around to get something cut up they look at me funny when I get all masked up to do a 60 sec job. But I know if I didn't I would be out of action the next day. Its took a while to find the best solution for me.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I watched the YT you linked and it's clear you take major precautions but its clear why given what you've just posted. Poor you....what symptoms do you suffer if you get a flare up? Is it flu like or breathing difficulty?

 

[lurker]

OK usually I try to avoid specific H&S as I come here to unwind

First I must stress I have no great knowledge of wood hazards beyond relating them to my other knowledge of dust & chemical and radiological hazards. Sorry if I misrepresented that.
I am pretty experienced with most available PPE/RPE LEV etc etc
I have good theoretical knowledge of work related disease
I was just extrapolating that into the woodwork enviroment

Iroko makes me itch, so I must be senstive thus it must have the potential to cause me breathing problems so I avoid it.
ditto cocobo (spell)

 

[sploo]

versaflow is the dogs.
BUT.............although I could have a versaflow system for free, I use Trend Airshield that I paid for.

The way you say that is as if you have some professional inside knowledge of it's performance, which given your profession is highly likely. Can you share that ie be more specific about why it's good?

Also, just being nosy so feel free to tell me to butt out but......why, if you can get a free one don't you?

That really interests me too - why the AirShield over the VersaFlow? If the filtration were the same then I'd assume the VersaFlow would be better as the helmet is lighter. That said, because the motor and filters are on your waist you obviously have the hose running up your back; which might get snagged for some applications (probably fine for a relatively stationary turner I guess).

The talk about removing PPE is a good one - if the garage is full of dust I never remove the AirShield until I'm well outside, and won't return (without the AirShield) until at least an hour later (with the air filter having run for that time).

I also remove and shake down the outer later of clothes I'm wearing and put them in a bag before going in the house - I certainly don't want the family breathing in the dust.

I see too many people using PPE whilst doing a cut, then removing the mask immediately afterwards (where's all the dust folks?). Again it's the reason I'd love separate power and hand tool workshops, as I often want to take (power) cut stock and immediately do hand tool work - which is a pain with the AirShield.

BTW I might put the cash down for one of Glenn's DVDs - certainly his gouge technique looks very smooth compared to just about any other online turner I've seen.

 

[lurker]

versaflow is the dogs.
BUT.............although I could have a versaflow system for free, I use Trend Airshield that I paid for.

The way you say that is as if you have some professional inside knowledge of it's performance, which given your profession is highly likely. Can you share that ie be more specific about why it's good?

Also, just being nosy so feel free to tell me to butt out but......why, if you can get a free one don't you?

At work (and this is lots of sites throughout the UK) we use versaflow as its so good (protection & comfort) for many tasks we do. I personally have worn it many times
But at home my preference is my trend as it does that job well; I was trying to make the point that I believe the versaflow is OTT, but then I dont have Chaz's issues.
PPE hygiene is the key many overlook.

 

[lurker]

..I figure the filter must be taking a lot of the airbourne dust out, as I don't get the flu-like sensitivity symptoms if I go back in and do some handtool work.

The symptoms you mention are sure way of telling that all is not well and something is getting through the defences, not sure it's enough for long term health problems compared with everyday life exposure but it sure makes the body react and that must be for a reason.

This is bang on the nail
Don't ignore symptoms like this, its an early warning.

 

[sploo]

..I figure the filter must be taking a lot of the airbourne dust out, as I don't get the flu-like sensitivity symptoms if I go back in and do some handtool work.

The symptoms you mention are sure way of telling that all is not well and something is getting through the defences, not sure it's enough for long term health problems compared with everyday life exposure but it sure makes the body react and that must be for a reason.

This is bang on the nail
Don't ignore symptoms like this, its an early warning.

You've got me worried now! I suffer from hayfever (not as bad as I did when I was younger), and the symptoms are similar (sore throat, runny nose, and in extreme cases itchy eyes).

I can spend the day doing hand tool work (planing, chiselling, and even a bit of hand sawing) without any issues at all. In fact, I can't recall the last time I had the symptoms. So... should I be talking to a GP? Not sure what they'd do in the first instance. I did have a company medical last year and my blow-into-this-tube lung function test was apparently very good.

 

[CHJ]

.....My Father died of lung cancer in 1983 and was a very keen woodworker. However, as I've already said, he smoked all his life and there's no question in my mind that was the primary cause. I often wonder however if the combination of a sticky coating of tar lining the bronchioles made the inhalation of wood dust all the worse. With the usual tiny hairs in the tubes which catch particles and eject them through sneezing or mucus out of action due to the tar he must have been at much greater risk. There was of course zero extraction and he even built a "table saw" out of Dexion framing, an old washing machine motor and a chipboard top. He frequently used elements of chipboard hidden in the carcasses of his projects because of course it was cheap.

When you consider the known respiratory hazards now compared to back then, it's a wonder anybody survived!

Rob, I think your comments about contributing factors get to the root of the problem and the reason it's hard to find definitive information on COPD and wood.
How can you be specific about finite cause when we are passing through a generation that is becoming more aware of the risks but never-the-less have been exposed to some potentially hazardous conditions before the alarms were raised.
For me it's been asbestos-Beryllium Coper oxides- Tric. -Carbon tetc.- Magnatron generated radiation-hydraulic fluids- plating shop chemicals (all of which I remember being flagged and removed or reduced in exposure) our bodies cope with a lot of abuse.

I have worked with folks that have been exposed to terrible conditions/materials during their working life that have got away with it until very late in life, they always relate such experiences when you instruct them to wear PPE, others have succumbed to lung disease including cancer in their 50-60's including members of my own family.
Three instances of Cancer of the lungs I have knowledge of were all heavy smokers, cigarettes-cigars and pipes. One family was convinced that it was due to severe exposure to asbestos dust when a buildings insulated ceiling collapsed another could only see smoking as a cause but the person was always around building refurbishments and plaster dusts etc. as well.

 

[sploo]

Three instances of Cancer of the lungs I have knowledge of were all heavy smokers, cigarettes-cigars and pipes. One family was convinced that it was due to severe exposure to asbestos dust when a buildings insulated ceiling collapsed another could only see smoking as a cause but the person was always around building refurbishments and plaster dusts etc. as well.

This is why good scientific studies need sufficiently large cohorts; there will always be the guys who smoked 40 a day and lived until 90, and the guy who spend 2 years as a light smoker and died in his 20s from lung cancer. Only sufficiently large numbers, taking groups of otherwise similar people who have (or have not) been exposed to various chemicals/particulates will actually give the answer.

I do see a lot of dismissive attitude on PPE for home woodworkers (and equally a fair bit of scaremongering). In the absence of decent evidence I prefer to try to protect my lungs, and (knowingly contradicting my previous paragraph), in my own personal cohort of... me.. I wish I'd known then what I know now: I'd have ponied up the cash for the AirShield as soon as I started hacking MDF. Unfortunately it's much easier (and more fun) to spend the cash on tools instead.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Yes, I'm staggeringly careful around mdf too. In fact any man made board where I know there's resin in its manufacture which includes pretty much all of them, ply, OSB, Chipboard, blockboard etc.

But I confess, I'm not as diligent when machining natural woods, although again, I do take extra care if it comes from somewhere exotic! (Like Yandles I hear you chorus )

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

.....My Father died of lung cancer in 1983 and was a very keen woodworker. However, as I've already said, he smoked all his life and there's no question in my mind that was the primary cause. I often wonder however if the combination of a sticky coating of tar lining the bronchioles made the inhalation of wood dust all the worse. With the usual tiny hairs in the tubes which catch particles and eject them through sneezing or mucus out of action due to the tar he must have been at much greater risk. There was of course zero extraction and he even built a "table saw" out of Dexion framing, an old washing machine motor and a chipboard top. He frequently used elements of chipboard hidden in the carcasses of his projects because of course it was cheap.

When you consider the known respiratory hazards now compared to back then, it's a wonder anybody survived!

Rob, I think your comments about contributing factors get to the root of the problem and the reason it's hard to find definitive information on COPD and wood.
How can you be specific about finite cause when we are passing through a generation that is becoming more aware of the risks but never-the-less have been exposed to some potentially hazardous conditions before the alarms were raised.
For me it's been asbestos-Beryllium Coper oxides- Tric. -Carbon tetc.- Magnatron generated radiation-hydraulic fluids- plating shop chemicals (all of which I remember being flagged and removed or reduced in exposure) our bodies cope with a lot of abuse.

I have worked with folks that have been exposed to terrible conditions/materials during their working life that have got away with it until very late in life, they always relate such experiences when you instruct them to wear PPE, others have succumbed to lung disease including cancer in their 50-60's including members of my own family.
Three instances of Cancer of the lungs I have knowledge of were all heavy smokers, cigarettes-cigars and pipes. One family was convinced that it was due to severe exposure to asbestos dust when a buildings insulated ceiling collapsed another could only see smoking as a cause but the person was always around building refurbishments and plaster dusts etc. as well.

Good point Chas and again, does tend to lead anyone with a functioning intellect down the path towards greater emphasis on PPE and appropriate equipment.