Windsor Chairs

[custard]

There's been quite a lot of mention on the forum recently about windsor chairs, and that interest is currently being echoed elsewhere.

This month's edition of Furniture & Cabinetmaker features a detailed look at the building of a very contemporary version of a windsor,

It's a smashing article, giving full measured plans plus detailed constructional advice on how it was made. It was interesting to see just how many bang on-trend design details were incorporated into this build, the seat is textured with thousands of gouge cut dimples, there's no turning as all the legs and spindles are octagonal in cross section, the finish is paint plus Osmo 3044 to give that bone white, bleached driftwood type effect, and the aggressive curve to the crest rail was achieved by "bricking" together individual overlapping blocks rather than laminating or steam bending.

Moving to the other end of the windsor chair age spectrum an interesting article appeared a few days ago on Pegs & Tails, a fascinating blog that Andy T alerted me to,

https://pegsandtails.wordpress.com

The Pegs & Tails article shows the kind of luscious patination that Elm develops after a few hundred years of waxing, oxidation, and bottom burnishing! Sadly English Elm is virtually unobtainable these days. I was active as windsor chair maker when Dutch Elm disease first struck, and the market was flooded with vast quantities of Elm boards at absolutely give away prices. I've still got a few, whopping boards nearly a metre across and 65mm thick, in case the windsor chair spirit moves me again,

El Barto of this forum recently completed a week long training course in windsor chair making and posted an excellent write up, given that he's clearly got the bug I dug out a thick English Elm blank for him, so he can make a windsor seat out of a single Elm board in the traditional way,

If you're tempted to follow then you should be aware that a number of the Scottish timber yards occasionally have thick boards of Wych Elm that's eminently suited for windsor seat making. They generally max out at 50mm or 55mm thick, so a whisker less than the ideal 65mm, but still perfectly serviceable. This is a typical Wych Elm board that I picked up from one of the yards in the Dunkeld area, it has a redder tone and typically greater amounts of pippy figure, as you can see this one is marked up for three chair seat blanks, which is a fairly typical yield

You'll still occasionally find some astonishing Wych Elm boards, this was a corker that I found for a waney edge table,

In close up it showed the most mesmerising grain and figure,

In a sense were fortunate in this country that there are no longer any UK veneer mills, it means that solid boards like this nearly always make there way to the market instead of being sliced into veneers.

 

[AndyT]

Thanks Custard, plenty of food for thought there.
But the thing that struck me first about that chair on the F&C cover is the really steep angle of the seat. My reaction is to think that it's the result of the relentless pursuit of novelty and is too steep to be comfortable - am I wrong?

 

[custard]

Thanks Custard, plenty of food for thought there.
But the thing that struck me first about that chair on the F&C cover is the really steep angle of the seat. My reaction is to think that it's the result of the relentless pursuit of novelty and is too steep to be comfortable - am I wrong?

Good question.

The chair in the article has the seat 9 degrees off from the horizontal, and the back is 99 degrees from the seat. So the combined angle of the back is 108 degrees from the horizontal. That's a serious angle, but still not quite into deck chair territory!

There's some disagreement amongst the experts as to how reclined a chair back can be. John Croney in "Anthropometrics for Designers" goes further than most and says anywhere from 95 to 115 degrees from the horizontal is acceptable, and recliners can easily go to 120 degrees or more, so this windsor falls within that range if it's considered to be lounge chair. But if you wanted a dining chair then it's a non starter, as you'd be virtually guaranteed to end up with soup down your shirt!

I think the chair is likely to be comfortable enough (if slightly tricky to get out of unless you're quite limber), but it would be impractical for working or dining. On balance I think the designer just about gets away with this but I'd love to sit in it and put it to the test.

 

[custard]

Another interesting point about this windsor chair is the backrest or crest/top rail is about 105mm tall, and very precisely shaped with a flatter section to accommodate your back. That would add hugely to the comfort, I guess that's also why the designer went for a bricked up construction rather than steam bending or laminating, he could guarantee the dimensions precisely without any risk of spring back, and the solid timber construction means there's no risk of lamination glue lines peaking through after shaping.

 

[AndyT]

It is certainly a striking piece, looking very sculptural, but probably something quite a lot of posters on here could make, as you have pointed out, with relatively few tools.
Much more rewarding than cutting up rectangles of chipboard!

 

[MikeG.]

Nice wood, Custard, and nice posts......

............but man that is an ugly chair!

 

[dickm]

Nice wood, Custard, and nice posts......

............but man that is an ugly chair!

+1. Even its mother would have a problem!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I'd die in that chair if I sat in it - I'd never be able to slide my way out. :lol:

 

[SteveF]

that wych elm is stunning
that chair is far from my taste,but each to their own
I have the task of making dining chairs next year
not a clue where to start, so plenty of reading to do
our house fire destroyed 2 chairs so will replace with cheap ikea until I can build new ones

Steve

 

[Woodmonkey]

Funny how tastes differ, I actually really like the chair although I also think it looks difficult to get out of, and not sure about the blue.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

No - it makes it look as if it was designed for an infant's school.

 

[tony_s]

Agree with Woodmonkey: really like the chair but not so much the blue

 

[stuartpaul]

As the mag dropped through the letterbox I thought that looks cool. I wouldn't want one or attempt to make one but I just like the twist on the traditional design.

that wych elm is stunning
that chair is far from my taste,but each to their own
I have the task of making dining chairs next year
not a clue where to start, so plenty of reading to do
our house fire destroyed 2 chairs so will replace with cheap ikea until I can build new ones

Steve

Best book I've found is Chairmaking and Design by Jeff Miller (ISBN 0 85442 155 6). Covers basic design issues and has a number of decent designs that can be copied or built upon depending on personal taste.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Thanks Custard, plenty of food for thought there.
But the thing that struck me first about that chair on the F&C cover is the really steep angle of the seat. My reaction is to think that it's the result of the relentless pursuit of novelty and is too steep to be comfortable - am I wrong?

Good question.

The chair in the article has the seat 9 degrees off from the horizontal, and the back is 99 degrees from the seat. So the combined angle of the back is 108 degrees from the horizontal. That's a serious angle, but still not quite into deck chair territory!

There's some disagreement amongst the experts as to how reclined a chair back can be. John Croney in "Anthropometrics for Designers" goes further than most and says anywhere from 95 to 115 degrees from the horizontal is acceptable, and recliners can easily go to 120 degrees or more, so this windsor falls within that range if it's considered to be lounge chair. But if you wanted a dining chair then it's a non starter, as you'd be virtually guaranteed to end up with soup down your shirt!

I think the chair is likely to be comfortable enough (if slightly tricky to get out of unless you're quite limber), but it would be impractical for working or dining. On balance I think the designer just about gets away with this but I'd love to sit in it and put it to the test.

It could be the camera angle, but that seat looks a good bit more than 9 degrees from the horizontal to me. In combination with fairly shallow hollowing of the seat, I'd expect to slide backwards in that. I would expect that the elderly would never get out again. But then again, as the colour scheme says "playroom", perhaps that doesn't matter. But of course, small sitters would slide back and the front edge of the seat would dig uncomfortably in the back of your legs.

I can understand the desire to design something different, fresh. But chairs have been made for so long now it has to be either a damn good idea, or a very bad one. At a recent Bodger's ball, one of the chairs entered in the craft competition had a radiating set of natural form pieces of wood sticking up from the back edge of the seat to serve as a back. There was a note on the chair asking people not to sit on it, and looking carefully you could see why; one heavy person leaning back and it would have been firewood. Fortunately it didn't win a prize; I deemed it "not according to schedule" - if you can't sit, it is not a chair.

 

[Bodgers]

As the mag dropped through the letterbox I thought that looks cool. I wouldn't want one or attempt to make one but I just like the twist on the traditional design.

that wych elm is stunning
that chair is far from my taste,but each to their own
I have the task of making dining chairs next year
not a clue where to start, so plenty of reading to do
our house fire destroyed 2 chairs so will replace with cheap ikea until I can build new ones

Steve

Best book I've found is Chairmaking and Design by Jeff Miller (ISBN 0 85442 155 6). Covers basic design issues and has a number of decent designs that can be copied or built upon depending on personal taste.

I have the 2nd edition of this, yeah great book. Jeff is the man when it comes to chairs

Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Is that this Jeff Miller ?

https://www.furnituremaking.com/

At a glance, I think his designs look more appealing !

 

[Newbie_Neil]

At a recent Bodger's ball, one of the chairs entered in the craft competition had a radiating set of natural form pieces of wood sticking up from the back edge of the seat to serve as a back. There was a note on the chair asking people not to sit on it, and looking carefully you could see why; one heavy person leaning back and it would have been firewood. Fortunately it didn't win a prize; I deemed it "not according to schedule" - if you can't sit, it is not a chair.

That seems very harsh. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[stuartpaul]

Is that this Jeff Miller ?

https://www.furnituremaking.com/

At a glance, I think his designs look more appealing !

That's the man!

He makes some nice stuff (IMHO of course!).

 

[El Barto]

Very interesting post Custard. I'm going to have a look for the magazine (where is it sold, incidentally?). It's great seeing so many viewpoints on Windsors and what people do and don't like. Those Wych Elm boards are incredible. Is there a difference in using Wych Elm and English Elm for a seat and in general?

My main inspiration for getting in to it was this guy. His balance of modern and classic shapes is perfect to my eye. This quote of his on Windsors specifically spoke to me in a way that other areas of woodworking hadn't: "In Windsors, if it looks right, it is right". When I read that I immediately wanted to try it for myself.

I'm also a big fan of Christopher Schwarz's The Anarchist's Design Book. Although it's not specifically geared towards Windsor chairmaking, a lot of it is applicable. His staked chair, for instance, uses almost the exact same build techniques as a Windsor. I do love this chair.

Thanks for posting!

 

[custard]

Best book I've found is Chairmaking and Design by Jeff Miller (ISBN 0 85442 155 6). Covers basic design issues and has a number of decent designs that can be copied or built upon depending on personal taste.

I have the 2nd edition of this, yeah great book. Jeff is the man when it comes to chairs. [/quote]




As far as I know that's the only book on jointed chair making!

It's a useful primer, however IMO it's ultimately disappointing. It goes only so far but then stops short of sharing the stuff you really need to know. Jeff Miller clearly knows all the trade tricks, because some of his more complex designs incorporate them, but he doesn't explain any of these in this book. Consequently you're left with only simple and fairly rudimentary designs, the reader isn't given the methods and techniques necessary to tackle really interesting chair designs.

I'll give you some examples of what's not in his book but is needed for successful chair making.

Firstly, take a look at this chair.

The back bars (the vertical splats in the back) need to be tenoned into both the crest rail and the rear seat rail. But how do you do that with professional, gap free joinery? You can't work from the plan or rod, if components are curved in two directions a two dimensional plan won't deliver the precise dimensions, and even if it's all in a single plane then by this stage in a chair build discrepancies will have inevitably crept in which means you have to work from the piece of furniture in front of you rather than from a plan. There are a whole suite of cabinet making techniques that are used to overcome this specific problem, but they're not covered in the Jeff Miller book.

Or take a second example, illustrated in this chair.

If you look at the side rail that joins the front and back legs there's a very slight "twist" as shown by the blue lines. It's only a few degrees, and if you weren't looking for it you'd never spot it, but it's a very common and important constructional element in many jointed chairs. Again, there are several established techniques to deal with this and the layout complexities that come with it, but you won't find them in the Jeff Miller book.

Finally, have a look at the corner blocks in this photo.

Like a lot of case furniture many chairs have corner blocks to add strength in critical areas. But unlike case furniture the corner blocks in chairs are not at 90 degrees, they may have compound angles or even curves, yet to achieve a good glue bond they need to be precisely scribed to mate against other components. Chair making has evolved loads of tricks and techniques to achieve this, but there's no mention of them in the Jeff Miller book.

I could go on, but you get the picture. The Jeff Miller book is okay as a very basic introduction to non-windsor chair making, but it really needs a second volume to take things to the next level. Unfortunately as far as I know there's no book out there that shares this information. There is a half way house in that a Canadian woodworker (I forget his name, I think it's Michael something?) has published the techniques for making jointed chairs that simplify things considerably by separating the seat from the chair sub-structure, that's well worth exploring if you're interested in chair making, but I don't believe that the really critical details for making full-fat versions of jointed chairs are either on the web or in print. Little hints and allusions here or there, but no single source that guides you through the entire process.