Why modern chisels are "softer" than some older ones.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Back to the point of "softness" in chisels, take a visit to "Sawmill Creek" as there is a similar thread going on, but titled something about a plane blade being too hard to sharpen. A true expert, George Wilson (whom Dave Weaver knows) weighs in about the interactions of the "whys" and "hows" determines how steels act, and further puts forth most modern steels are too hard. IIRC, he suggests optimal hardness for edge tools to be around HRc54 and saw steel to be around HRc52.

Back to my earlier post of Aldi hardness being 54 and 57. Could these be chisels our subconscious just like, because we can get them sharper and keep them sharp, because harder steels, above HRc 60 to 62 have microchips on the edge? Last evening I was using one of my favorites: a Ward that cost me nearly nothing, because it lacked a handle and had a wrecked edge. A little bit of time to turn and then plane flats gave me my favorite handle (London pattern), and more time flattening & re-establishing the bevel, resulted in a lovely chisel. It is too thick to be called a paring chisel, but too thin, with side bevels coming out to next to nothing, to be called a paring chisel. To me it is nearly perfect. Sharpens and hones to a razor edge, and I believe I will check and report back its hardness.

 

[Saer Llongau]

A true expert, George Wilson (whom Dave Weaver knows) weighs in about the interactions of the "whys" and "hows" determines how steels act, and further puts forth most modern steels are too hard. IIRC, he suggests optimal hardness for edge tools to be around HRc54 and saw steel to be around HRc52.

Of course this is all highly subjective and all depends on what you grew up with. A typical Japanese chisel of good quality is 63-64HCR, I prefer them even harder at 65-66HRC. The Japanese have been using chisels of this hardness for centuries with great success. I think the reason why modern Western chisels are softer is ease of manufacturing, keeping the cost down and people have simply forgotten how to use a hard chisel. They use it as a jack of all trades including prying, opening paint cans, sometimes even a screwdriver, that sort of stuff instead of using it for what a chisel is designed for.

This so called "expert" can say what he wants but it doesn't mean a thing to me.

 

[D_W]

I think george might be off with the hardness number for chisels.

I know he likes a plane iron to be slightly softer than chisels (in his terms, just so that a very good quality file starts to get a bite), which is somewhere around going from straw to brown on 01.

I tested a bunch of chisels years ago (actually, a buddy and I did) by handing chisels over to an experienced versitron user at an engineering firm and we found one chisels I had (that neither of us could get to work well) at 53. The rest were harder. Iyoroi and LN chisels both scored 61 on average, and I don't remember exactly what the others were, but they weren't close to 53 and they weren't 61. That was about ten years ago, maybe more now, so I don't remember what we had tested of my lot.

I can make a pretty good guess at chisel hardness now with a washita stone, as long as the alloy isn't something exotic (like S30V). I would've guessed robt sorby chisels to be 57/58, and a user on woodwork forums tested a robt sorby chisel to be 58. I'd guess 60-61 for footprint (the good ones, not the ones that look like later marples chisels) and ashley iles chisels. They are just about ideal for a washita. Two clicks harder, and the washita starts to get graded by the chisel. Two more than that and they start to be difficult to sharpen on a japanese natural stone. (the chisels that saer is talking about 65/66 can be slow going on a natural stone).

 

[Saer Llongau]

The new Stanley Sweetheart 750 chisels are also 59-60HRc. They're pretty popular with furniture makers over here who don't want to lay down the money for Lie Nielsen. Even Narex is right around 58HRc. I don't know where that 54HRc comes from that this "expert" is talking about. That's what a cheap SS knife is.

the chisels that saer is talking about 65/66 can be slow going on a natural stone.

Not if it's properly forged and you have a strong Okudo suita

 

[Jacob]

Lots of options being discussed there. So basically anything goes?
Exactly what I thought from the beginning; job needs doing, pick up a chisel (your favourite, an extravagant top ender, or a random choice), get on with it!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

A true expert, George Wilson (whom Dave Weaver knows) weighs in about the interactions of the "whys" and "hows" determines how steels act, and further puts forth most modern steels are too hard. IIRC, he suggests optimal hardness for edge tools to be around HRc54 and saw steel to be around HRc52.

Of course this is all highly subjective and all depends on what you grew up with. A typical Japanese chisel of good quality is 63-64HCR, I prefer them even harder at 65-66HRC. The Japanese have been using chisels of this hardness for centuries with great success. I think the reason why modern Western chisels are softer is ease of manufacturing, keeping the cost down and people have simply forgotten how to use a hard chisel. They use it as a jack of all trades including prying, opening paint cans, sometimes even a screwdriver, that sort of stuff instead of using it for what a chisel is designed for.

This so called "expert" can say what he wants but it doesn't mean a thing to me.

....And what you are banging on about doesn't mean a thing to me, either.

How many site chippies are going to be using very expensive high-end hand-made Japanese chisels at 65 or 66 HRC? They wouldn't last ten minutes of second-fix site work, or general house or commercial repairs. The edges woould be snapped off in no time.

Modern general purpose chisels are deliberately made a touch softer for a reason - they will take abuse. Which is exactly what many tradesmen need from a chisel for site work. The very same tradesmen may well have some harder chisels kept for bench work - but they wouldn't risk them on site!

 

[johnnyb]

I actually much prefer site work with a (slightly)blunter chisel! I know I know. But much of the work is feathering and when bluntish the chips seem to remove themselves when razor the chips don't seem to shift(and also get stuck on the end)

 

[Saer Llongau]

How many site chippies are going to be using very expensive high-end hand-made Japanese chisels at 65 or 66 HRC?

Why do you assume a high quality Japanese chisel is high-end and very expensive?

Modern general purpose chisels are deliberately made a touch softer for a reason - they will take abuse.

That's exactly the point I made. They're used as general purpose tools. I have a few cheap Stanley chisels for when I need something I can abuse and when I'm working on solid wood I use my Japanese chisels.

 

[Jacob]

.........
How many site chippies are going to be using very expensive high-end hand-made Japanese chisels at 65 or 66 HRC? .....

And how many fine furniture makers?
Not many I guess.
Probably not many in Japan either.

 

[johnnyb]

I think the points being made seem to fall into 1 japanese chisels are not suited to site work and are to hard to use as anything but chisels
2 all modern chisels are used for everything from levering skirting off to fitting doors.
Neither point seems right to me. I could use japanese chisels on site and they would work great but there to expensive and would receive a lot of unwanted attention /discussion.
I use my slightly softer Western chisels as I've mostly acquired them cheap and most important the range of sizes covers most ironmongery. I don't open paint tins with them but I do use a hammer( even with wooden handles) softer does mean there a bit easier to sharpen if they get a nick though.
My japanese chisels would never go near Anything likely to chip them!

 

[Saer Llongau]

And how many fine furniture makers?
Not many I guess.
Probably not many in Japan either.

An experienced sashimono will prefer a full hardness white steel blade almost all of the time. And they don't have to be very expensive if you don't care who's name is on it.

 

[Jacob]

Had to look up sashimono http://sasimono.ciao.jp/English/learnin ... imono.html
A ritualistic variety of a traditional craft. Interesting yes but perhaps not relevant to your typical working woodworker.
Interesting that the nail is fundamental. Our so-called fine furniture makers would run a mile - but probably buy the chisels just on the off chance that some sort of magic would rub off.
It wouldn't.
That cultish thing is seductive. No need to go the full monogatari, you can do it yourself - you explain to people that this tool isn't e.g. a hammer but is in fact a ha-ma. :lol:

 

[D_W]

Fairly sure Saer works on boats professionally, and probably has use for a chisel that holds its edge well.

The japanese could've made their chisels softer, but at least some of them felt it was disrespectful to sharpen on the job. I know there are english workers who may not have felt exactly the same way, but who did like to have several sharp irons ready at the beginning of a work day.

In my opinion, if you're not chiseling into nails and opening paint cans, the difference between a footprint of some age (which is generally 60-62 hardness) and the cheaper soft site chisels is pretty significant.

Here in the states, we still do have trade carpenters and they're required to own hand tools, but I don't think they use them for much. I talked to one at a wedding two years ago and he said something along the lines of "he should sharpen his chisels, because he couldn't remember the last time he did". There is little private work done by guys like that, they're usually working on union contract worksites - I have no idea what one does in a new commercial building with wood chisels.

 

[D_W]

How many site chippies are going to be using very expensive high-end hand-made Japanese chisels at 65 or 66 HRC?

Why do you assume a high quality Japanese chisel is high-end and very expensive?

I have bought about 40 chisels off of japanese auctions. I'd bet at least 30 of them are 64 hardness or harder. Most of the rest are modern cheap chisels that just came along with the lot.

The average price for them has been less than $10. they are superb for bench work, as good as anything new, but when you buy the old ones like that, they're not consistent in proportion.

 

[Saer Llongau]

Fairly sure Saer works on boats professionally, and probably has use for a chisel that holds its edge well.

Well, I didn't choose this nickname for nothing. You are correct, I work on boats professionally from time to time (among other things). When you're working with hard, White Oak all day long a soft chisel just won't do because you'll be back to the grinder after half an hour of chopping. A full hardness chisel is indispensable for me. Time is money after all.

The japanese could've made their chisels softer, but at least some of them felt it was disrespectful to sharpen on the job.

It goes back all the way to when the Samurai period came to an end. The Katana smiths needed to put their skills to some other good use and since they had always been making swords with a hard core they transferred this custom to chisels. Another reason is that in the old days carpenters were paid by the number of joints they made in a day. Sharpening was a joint and money not being made.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Another reason I read was that there was next to no amateur woodworking done in Japan, so there wasn't an amateur market to cater for.

 

[johnnyb]

A visit to Japan quickly shows that as a nation it's slightly obsessional. An example I often think of is Chinese use a cleaver for almost all preparation of food( apart from dim sum). This would be unthinkable in Japan . A huge range of knives is used for many different foods.often really expensive and also temperamental.
Sheffield has always made tools that are users ironically often in a baffling range for empire and home.
But for me the Chinese cleaver is a wonderful versatile device made well enough for utility. No more.
Are japanese knives better than Chinese cleavers?
For most folk doing most things I suggest not.

 

[D_W]

.........
How many site chippies are going to be using very expensive high-end hand-made Japanese chisels at 65 or 66 HRC? .....

And how many fine furniture makers?
Not many I guess.
Probably not many in Japan either.

You can't really call the veneered and bent weirdness now a real basis for judging hand tools. Unless you're talking about knives and little saws.

 

[Saer Llongau]

A visit to Japan quickly shows that as a nation it's slightly obsessional.

You should see them go bonkers over natural sharpening stones. Some people over there will pay hundreds, sometimes a thousand or more for a stone. There's an Ohira shirosuita on Yahoo Auctions right now and it will fetch a minimum of $600. That's obsessional :lol:

 

[johnnyb]

On a visit to Kyoto we went to a temple market(kobo San)with a guy selling loads of natural stones. They were all really expensive! I ended up buying a small chunk....I've still got it.