Why is the UK Timber Yards Sooo messed up?

[bugbear]

The natural response is to think "well - a lot of our wood has to be shipped in..." - but, I'm looking at prices in Atlanta - that wood is getting hauled nearly 3000 miles from Canada by road - and its 4000 miles to the UK by boat, and the boat is a LOT cheaper.

Interesting point - the Chinese have demonstrated that if you move stuff in large enough quantities, shipping costs (to a first approximation) are zero.

BugBear

 

[RobinBHM]

Have you tried this company?

http://www.don-timber.co.uk/

Although large, they say no minimum order, so you may be lucky. you just need to find somebody that has the technical knowledge and is helpful that can advise what you need, Im sure the right timber will be available in the UK.

I dont think you are ever going to get the type of timber you need on a local merchant, they only cater for the construction industry, fencing etc. You need to talk to an importer who can supply the grade you need. You will almost certainly need to be buying a reasonable quantity and have it delivered.

What you are looking for is either a decent grade of spruce ie whitewood, or scandinavian redwood. If you want clean 75 x 75 or 100 x 100, this would probably need to be greensplit material (ie sawn to this size before kilning), otherwise you are likely to receive timber with splits. 75 x 75 is most likely to be available in 150 x 75 which is a very common size and may be heart and split free.

 

[xraymtb]

When comparing to the US, and even more so India, consider the costs beyond transport. For example, VAT, property prices, minimum wages, NI etc. A lot of things that other countries don't have to pay or pay a lot less for.

I'm not defending our timber industry as good service doesn't cost anything and charging different prices for different customers should be banned but a direct comparison isn't ever going to be fair either.

 

[lurker]

Everyone knows the mericans pay in dollars what we pay in pounds, the ones who bother to look can understand why.
Timber is a prime construction material over there. There is wide demand.
Next time you visit go, price up bricks ( proper ones!) you wil find the story completely reversed.

I assume wages in Eastern Europe are very low otherwise why are their workers flocking here with the aim of sending money back home.

I doubt this yarn about a regional difference holds water. Newcastle is going to be pretty much the same as Leeds or someone would fill the gap. The professionals amongst us are explaining why people are finding problems but they are not listening

 

[SlowSteve]

When comparing to the US, and even more so India, consider the costs beyond transport. For example, VAT, property prices, minimum wages, NI etc. A lot of things that other countries don't have to pay or pay a lot less for.

I'm not defending our timber industry as good service doesn't cost anything and charging different prices for different customers should be banned but a direct comparison isn't ever going to be fair either.

Understood - but if you factor those in, it gets WORSE - not better.

Take India - especially Mumbai where I know the timber prices well - the property prices are in another league - they make London prices look like Grimsby. And they have Monsoons - so all the wood is covered - you can't leave it out in that heat and amount of water for 9-12 weeks so that drives up costs. Average wages ARE lower - but that just means that the average customer has less money to spend - especially as they are paying insane rents or mortgages. No NI - but medical cover is expensive. Tax rates are similar to the UK, but much much more complex to deal with.

In the US - property prices and taxes are lower - but the Home Depot I go to the most often has more square footage set aside just for timber than the main B+Q I go to in the UK has in entire floor space. And all that space is air conditioned and humidity controller - nothing outside - all in a double skinned building, you get fancy electric trolleys and there is an ex-trade member of staff every two isles (!!) to help you sort through the timber, ask advice and load your trolley. And then more people to take the trolley out to the car. Based on the electricity bills we're paying for our server centre in the same town, I would guess they are paying $1m/year as a minimum just on Air Conditioning - maybe more than that. ( for big businesses in the US, A/C can be a major cost - Google spend more on A/C than they do on staff salaries). The other thing to bear in mind is that these places carry astonishing amounts of stock, which is a huge financial outlay - the place I go to has a 40 foot isle just for glue! Think how much they are holding in total stock value.

The thing is - we're not talking about something hard or special. There is at least a partial reason we pay more for electrical tools - a fairly small demand, the need for an earth and incredible level of electrical testing means that there is more sunk-cost to off-set - but wood isn't like that. it's not got a huge amount of compliance controls compared to the hoops in canada and especially in the US - so that should reduce costs - it's big and bulky - the cheapest way to move it is by boat, and we live on an island - it should be cheaper - not more expensive. And... lets not forget - it *literally* grows on trees!

Going to Sitefives last example - how is it conceivable that someone cuts down a tree that they didn't pay to feed or water, they put it through an automated TwinSaw to get out 40 75x75 planks every 5 minutes - with no staffing costs - saws it down to 5 meters, kilns it in a 400 ton kilm - shoves it on a boat with 70-80,000 tons of other wood and ships it to the UK and then SiteFive gets quoted £20 for it? In what way can that possible be considered reasonable or in line with reality?

For the same price - £20 - I can buy 6 entire and complete microcomputers each of which contains more computing power than a 7 year old computer and were created in a £14Billion factory.

Seriously - in those terms - why is it expensive?


<edit to Lurker: You've got your point the wrong way around. High demand from timber framing should only drive timber prices UP - not down. Indeed my friends are bitterly moaning about wood prices at the moment compared to where they were in 2009/2010 after the crash. You can't make tree's grow faster - so if supply is roughly similar and demand goes crazy, so do prices.

Bricks are roughly the same price - although Brick LAYERS - i.e. a specialist brickie in the UK, rather than an all around chap who can build a garden wall - are in very short supply and cost a fortune (3x, 4x or maybe even 5x ) what a UK guy does.

 

[skipdiver]

I watched a documentary a couple of years ago about rip off Britain. The big manufacturers refer to us as Treasure Island because of the mark ups they can get away with here. They had an American guy on and he said over there, the question is asked when pricing a commodity, "how much do we need to charge for this product to cover costs and turn a profit?" In Britain the question is "how much can we get away with charging for this?".

I'm always having a moan at my Timber Merchants about ever increasing prices and one of the lines usually trotted out is rising transport costs. I asked this week if the prices would be dropping now that oil prices are at an all time low. Blank stares all round.

 

[sitefive]

People over here have got money to blow that's really it..If you could charge ridiculous $ for stuff and people would still buy it wouldn't you charge? It has almost nothing at all to do with wages being paid here as a factor which would drive up prices, because for the employer due to the way income tax is in UK you got the same expenses paying someone £8 an ahour and paying someone in rest of the europe £4.5/hour.
Makes me shake my head how people in UK just throw away their £ on pretty much everything.
Even people Not working at all and living on benefits still have money to blow..

 

[blackrodd]

As you say, wood does grow on trees, and no one pays to water or feed it, and as everybody also knows, the other guys job is really easy!
Timber Cutting, transport, conversion, and kilning, Shipping, delivery, and waste all factored in at point of sale, say You're local Jewsons.
Well, someone had to grub it all up, and re plant last time that woodland was felled, and 20, or 30 years ago, it was more labour intensive back then, what the rabbits and deer haven't eaten will all grow, all this "free wood"!
All woodlands have to be "responsibly managed" Although the professionals did "responsibly manage" before it was the
political thing to do.


And all this post is about people who think trade discounts should be abolished, probably because they don't have a trade account to qualify for one.
Cold calling on the 'phone asking for prices and trade discounts is hardly the way to go about getting a deal!
When I need a trade price, I'll quote my personal account code, or they'll ring me back
Painters get trade discount at there paint outlets, so do plumbers and electricians at theirs.
Garage's, mechanics, etc get their parts from Car parts supplies, etc, etc.
Trade discount is all around us and a way for a business to attract a customer base, without which he's finished,
As Lons and others have said, I found Jewsons and my old firm excellent to deal with, good and friendly staff from this side of the counter.
On the other side of the counter I found Mr public frequently is not really sure of what he wants, sometimes has a (know all) relative who is a bloody idiot, and will blame anyone but himself for not taking advice.

CLS, is now given to that that type of timber from Europe as well as Canada and North America, regularised, planed with rounded corners, It's meant for structural use, Building quality, not joinery or fifths.
Far superior to when you had to pay to regularise you're joisting, battens and roofing materials everytime.
Regards Rodders

 

[davin]

Just out of interest which country are you from?
I was in Finland a few weeks ago, and being a wood geek went to some timber merchants, The prices for softwood are cheaper here in the UK than there. Birch ply is cheaper here as well which is pretty strange seeing as it is made there. But Finland has 5.5 million people and the UK has 65 (or 85 if you read the Daily Mail).
My local timber merchants, Wenbans in Lewes, has a much better selection of softwood than any I saw in Finland.
Ok you can get much better quality pine there (furniture grade, properly kilned to 10% not like 20% unsorted here) but it is about the same price as Oak here.
My wife is Polish so I know the country well, If I was a rich man I would start importing Oak, Beech, Ash and Sycamore from there. Totally underutilised forests. Trouble is I am a carpenter not a businessman.

 

[Peter Sefton]

I have had some great Oak from Poland and even better from Ukraine, I guess we won't be seeing much more for sometime.

Cheers Peter

 

[sitefive]

As you say, wood does grow on trees, and no one pays to water or feed it, and as everybody also knows, the other guys job is really easy!
Timber Cutting, transport, conversion, and kilning, Shipping, delivery, and waste all factored in at point of sale, say You're local Jewsons.
Well, someone had to grub it all up, and re plant last time that woodland was felled, and 20, or 30 years ago, it was more labour intensive back then, what the rabbits and deer haven't eaten will all grow, all this "free wood"!
All woodlands have to be "responsibly managed" Although the professionals did "responsibly manage" before it was the
political thing to do.


And all this post is about people who think trade discounts should be abolished, probably because they don't have a trade account to qualify for one.
Cold calling on the 'phone asking for prices and trade discounts is hardly the way to go about getting a deal!
When I need a trade price, I'll quote my personal account code, or they'll ring me back
Painters get trade discount at there paint outlets, so do plumbers and electricians at theirs.
Garage's, mechanics, etc get their parts from Car parts supplies, etc, etc.
Trade discount is all around us and a way for a business to attract a customer base, without which he's finished,
As Lons and others have said, I found Jewsons and my old firm excellent to deal with, good and friendly staff from this side of the counter.
On the other side of the counter I found Mr public frequently is not really sure of what he wants, sometimes has a (know all) relative who is a bloody idiot, and will blame anyone but himself for not taking advice.

CLS, is now given to that that type of timber from Europe as well as Canada and North America, regularised, planed with rounded corners, It's meant for structural use, Building quality, not joinery or fifths.
Far superior to when you had to pay to regularise you're joisting, battens and roofing materials everytime.
Regards Rodders

clearly Missing the point here pal? It's not like anyone wants to buy cls stuff for joinery or even use treated fence posts in joinery, but this market is so messed up that you don't have much choice. Before moving to UK I got freshly cut to sizes timber ( regular joinery quality, not rubbish CLS , planed on a 4sider the day I needed them and all that for under £135 a cube, If you just needed fencing quality material it was well below £100/cube ,all officially while also paying the VAT/sales tax- what Did I used it for? To make Outdoor furniture where the timber quality doesn't even matters much- that timber would be classed as top quality timber here and would set you back £700/cube at your beloved Jewsons, I honestly did not know what the CLS stuff even is before coming to UK, that quality timber was destined to be cut up as firewood , I kid you not...

Everyone has those costs , however I believe that 99% of the timber sold in UK is imported and all your Glorified jewsons does is stock it in piles and sell, that's all they do while all the real work has already been done. But Still.. even with all that for some reason You get total crap quality timber for eye watering prices at least in the area where I am... Oh and you don't have the huge AC running costs as in US as well.

 

[davin]

Get some people together and cut out the middleman.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/T ... .66.tcSKEv

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/B ... .62.WXm5q0

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/T ... 0.9.WXm5q0

If I want good timber the last place I would go is a builders merchants. There is an Alsford timber 2 minutes away from where I live. Would never buy timber from there, MDF yes, timber no.

There are a couple of Slovakian guys in Lewes (http://www.itimber.co.uk) who bring a container of green Oak over from Czech Republic every month. I don't use them much as I don't use green timber but hats off to them, they spotted a gap in the market and went for it. Wish I had enough guts to do it. Selling timber is probably a lot easier way to make a living than making things from timber.

 

[blackrodd]

As I've said before, you're a difficult person to help.
You do seem to be the only person "in the trade" who can't get discount, and a fair price. as I've said you do need an account set up,to do this, Do you understand this? Cold calling won't do it, Forget what you paid back home, If you're selling you're product here, It won't matter,
What has what the English people do with their benefits etc to do with "I'm paying too much for my timber"
The trade element on here, me included, seem to manage on our costings, and discounts, but as the timber we have here is rubbish and too expensive for you,
perhaps you ought to get a truck and import you're own, like the man said.
Regards Rodders

 

[YorkshireMartin]

This is in no way intended as an insult to any residents of Tyne and Wear, but the last time I visited, outside of the center of Newcastle itself, it was very evident that the decline of industry hit the area very hard. I visited Blythe and a few other places and it was absolutely crying out for investment. Actually, I felt really sad about it all.

Perhaps the economy has something to do with it, leaving only the larger players in the market?

 

[n0legs]

Last time I went to Newcastle I was dressed as a Smurf.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Last time I went to Newcastle I was dressed as a Smurf.

Now that's a whole new tactic to get a discount....

 

[n0legs]

Last time I went to Newcastle I was dressed as a Smurf.

Now that's a whole new tactic to get a discount....

Well we did get a lot of free beer 8)

 

[davin]

"dressed", soft lad, when I last went I was wearing nowt.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

One interesting thing from this thread is the number of people who praise Jewson's. In my area over the decades Jewson's and its predecessors were/are the resort of last option.

 

[BearTricks]

I always thought Jewsons were in the same category as B&Q and homebase .

From averaging the posts in here it seems as if we are being taken for a ride, although maybe not to the extent that some people think.

One thing that's clear to me is that trade discounts don't help the weekend woodworker who needs to make a dining table for the wife, but who the timber yards can see coming a mile off. And in the face of sky high prices the appeal of the likes of Ikea isn't helping hobbyists or small British businesses. In my view, a pine or beech table from Ikea costs more than the equivalent walnut or cherry or oak or whatever should cost before price gouging.

I came in to some money I'd be tempted to open a small timber business geared towards woodworkers in the attempt to keep overheads low and actually pass on savings rather than see what I can get away with.

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