Why is planing all around so expensive?

[RedMist]

Hi all,

First time poster, apologies if this is a dumb question. I am new to woodworking and looking to purchase some wood. The type I need is available as "Sawn Board" or as "Planed All Around"

It's Cherry American Hardwood and the amount is 3 metres x 25mm thick x 300mm wide

As Sawn Board the cost is £55
As Planed All Around the cost is £125

Why the huge price difference??

 

[Graham Orm]

It does seem a big difference. Take into account the cost of the machining, man hours and machinery, then add the waste cut off the board to get it to just the size you want, then add in the cost of the boards that get planed that split or warp and can't be sold as planed to that size.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

I tend to plane all my own stock for a variety of reasons. It is a fair bit of work. Add to that the price of machinery, honing and setting knives, emptying the extractor bags, sweeping up the chips that don't make it into the extractor, putting aside the piece that chips out like crazy around a knot, £75 starts to not look like that much cash. Also if the final sizes of the planned board are the same as the dimensions as the rough board then it must have started out as considerably more wood. If money was the only consideration I would use PAR when available, however a decent planer thicknesser gives you options to make things the exact dimensions you want and to be in charge of your own quality control. If you end up paying for planned stock make sure you look through the pile and reject boards that are bent, twisted or have an unacceptable amount of snipe.
Paddy

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Be careful of the dimensions. It might be that specifying the thickness as 25 mm planed, it will come out of a thicker board than a 25 mm sawn one. Finished size and nominal size are different a 25 mm sawn board will only yield about 19 mm finished, so specifying 25 mm planed might mean an 1 1/4 board which is more expensive. I'm not saying this is definitely the case, but it might explain the big price difference.

Mike.

 

[custard]

SL Hardwoods

http://www.slhardwoods.co.uk/products/solid-timber

Sawn Cherry, 25mm x 300 x 3000mm is £45.42 ex VAT

PAR Cherry, 25mm x 290 x 3000mm is £125.49 ex VAT

Maybe that's why a planer/thicknesser is high on the shopping list for many new woodworkers?

Seriously, if you're a beginning woodworker you're best working on modest sized projects where you can handle the conversion from sawn boards relatively easily with hand tools.

Another reason to buy sawn Cherry is there's a reasonable possibility you'll get some figured/curly Cherry. But with PAR Cherry you stand far less of a chance. American Cherry is a great timber choice for the beginning woodworker, see the current thread in the Finishing Section for tips on how to finish it without blotching, that's the only real shortcoming with Cherry.

Good luck!

 

[PAC1]

SL Hardwoods

http://www.slhardwoods.co.uk/products/solid-timber

Sawn Cherry, 25mm x 300 x 3000mm is £45.42 ex VAT

PAR Cherry, 25mm x 290 x 3000mm is £125.49 ex VAT

Maybe that's why a planer/thicknesser is high on the shopping list for many new woodworkers?

Seriously, if you're a beginning woodworker you're best working on modest sized projects where you can handle the conversion from sawn boards relatively easily with hand tools.

Another reason to buy sawn Cherry is there's a reasonable possibility you'll get some figured/curly Cherry. But with PAR Cherry you stand far less of a chance. American Cherry is a great timber choice for the beginning woodworker, see the current thread in the Finishing Section for tips on how to finish it without blotching, that's the only real shortcoming with Cherry.

Good luck!

But finished 19 x 290 is £66

 

[custard]

SL Hardwoods

http://www.slhardwoods.co.uk/products/solid-timber

Sawn Cherry, 25mm x 300 x 3000mm is £45.42 ex VAT

PAR Cherry, 25mm x 290 x 3000mm is £125.49 ex VAT

Maybe that's why a planer/thicknesser is high on the shopping list for many new woodworkers?

Seriously, if you're a beginning woodworker you're best working on modest sized projects where you can handle the conversion from sawn boards relatively easily with hand tools.

Another reason to buy sawn Cherry is there's a reasonable possibility you'll get some figured/curly Cherry. But with PAR Cherry you stand far less of a chance. American Cherry is a great timber choice for the beginning woodworker, see the current thread in the Finishing Section for tips on how to finish it without blotching, that's the only real shortcoming with Cherry.

Good luck!

But finished 19 x 290 is £66

I agree, most of the "additional cost" in PAR is the waste material that goes up the extractor pipe. I was just maintaining the 25mm spec that the OP referenced.

 

[custard]

Incidentally, another way of looking at all this is to say what terrific value timber is.

The average newcomer to woodworking, able to dedicate say ten hours a week to their hobby, could reasonably expect to acquire the core skills in about two years of disciplined application. After that, for only about £60 or £70 outlay on materials, they should be able to tackle something like this,

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-co ... 4-Seg2.pdf

Which would give them a good few months of real pleasure making it, followed by a life time of satisfaction using it. Not a bad outcome for the money.

Get it right and hobby woodworking can deliver a pretty big reward for a relatively small cash outlay.

 

[deema]

I would look at sticking to sawn timber and contemplate had planing it up. The cost is only one minor factor. PSE is just that, it's produced normally by running it through eithe a 4 or 6 cutter. Neither machine is designed to create flat stuff, I.e. They don't have long outfeed tables like a planner or P/T. What you will get is planed stuff with square edges, it can be twisted, and bowed and still meet the criteria......and usually is!

Buying sawn timber, taking into account will leave almost £100 in your pocket. That's either very nice new hand plane or a good contribution towards a good P/T.

 

[PAC1]

I would look at sticking to sawn timber and contemplate had planing it up. The cost is only one minor factor. PSE is just that, it's produced normally by running it through eithe a 4 or 6 cutter. Neither machine is designed to create flat stuff, I.e. They don't have long outfeed tables like a planner or P/T. What you will get is planed stuff with square edges, it can be twisted, and bowed and still meet the criteria......and usually is!

Buying sawn timber, taking into account will leave almost £100 in your pocket. That's either very nice new hand plane or a good contribution towards a good P/T.

You are not comparing like for like. If you buy 25 x 300 sawn when you have planed it down it will be circa 19-20mm x 290mm. So to compare the price at SL Hardwood sawn was £45 and that piece planed was £66 so you only save £20. Now given I know how long it would take me to hand plane 3m of Cherry, if I did not have a P/T, I know I would regard the £20 as money well spent. Otherwise it is a £20 contribution to the P/T and most of a day gone planing that up. Good exercise though.

 

[custard]

I would look at sticking to sawn timber and contemplate had planing it up. The cost is only one minor factor. PSE is just that, it's produced normally by running it through eithe a 4 or 6 cutter. Neither machine is designed to create flat stuff, I.e. They don't have long outfeed tables like a planner or P/T. What you will get is planed stuff with square edges, it can be twisted, and bowed and still meet the criteria......and usually is!

Buying sawn timber, taking into account will leave almost £100 in your pocket. That's either very nice new hand plane or a good contribution towards a good P/T.

You are not comparing like for like. If you buy 25 x 300 sawn when you have planed it down it will be circa 19-20mm x 290mm. So to compare the price at SL Hardwood sawn was £45 and that piece planed was £66 so you only save £20. Now given I know how long it would take me to hand plane 3m of Cherry, if I did not have a P/T, I know I would regard the £20 as money well spent. Otherwise it is a £20 contribution to the P/T and most of a day gone planing that up. Good exercise though.

I'm some where between the two of you on this.

PAC 1 is right saying a 25mm sawn board is the same as a 19mm PAR board.

But Deema's correct in pointing out that timber yards rarely do a great job in planing hardwoods. They sometimes process the timber too soon after inadequate kilning, they rarely plane then thickness (to ensure a flat reference face), in fact most of the yards I visit just push it straight through a thicknesser. They run their knives way past when they should be changed, plus often feed a board in from the wrong direction and always run their machinery at maximum speed. The net result is that the PAR hardwood board you receive may well be cupped, crook, in wind, and gouged all over with tear out. Meaning you then have to plane it all over again yourself!

Other practical reasons for buying sawn is that you can often get consecutive, waney edged boards from the same log, thereby guaranteeing the colour match and allowing book matched jointing. PAR boards are all over the place and you'll never get consecutive boards, in fact you probably won't even get the same log. In addition if you want say 30-32mm square legs for a side table or hall table you can often get these from a nominal 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" sawn board with some careful work. But for this very common dimension in PAR you'd have to start with a 50mm/2" board, which is the thickness where the price generally starts to rocket because it takes so much more time and money to complete the pre-kiln air drying and the kilning itself.

 

[doctor Bob]

If you guys are going to timber yards where they use planer / thicknessers or seperates then they are in the stone age.

I'm a small operator and even I have a four sider with pre straighteners.

 

[custard]

If you guys are going to timber yards where they use planer / thicknessers or seperates then they are in the stone age.

I'm a small operator and even I have a four sider with pre straighteners.

The best furniture timbers often come from the smaller yards.

 

[doctor Bob]

If you guys are going to timber yards where they use planer / thicknessers or seperates then they are in the stone age.

I'm a small operator and even I have a four sider with pre straighteners.

The best furniture timbers often come from the smaller yards.

Indeed, however even a small yard should have a 4 sider, I'm a very small business. A four sider saves so much time, if you are machining timber as a business you'd be mad not to have one.

 

[woodenstx]

If you guys are going to timber yards where they use planer / thicknessers or seperates then they are in the stone age.

I'm a small operator and even I have a four sider with pre straighteners.

The best furniture timbers often come from the smaller yards.

Indeed, however even a small yard should have a 4 sider, I'm a very small business. A four sider saves so much time, if you are machining timber as a business you'd be mad not to have one.

Sooooooo being exceptionally cheeky (and if you dont ask you never know), would you be able to supply small quantities of timber that has been correctly 4 side prepped etc ? I'm in Bishops Stortford so not too far from your place :lol: /stalker mode off

 

[RobinBHM]

The difference is not the cost of machining, but in utilisation of timber.

A sawn board for example, 1" x 8" (25mm x 203mm) can actually be 190mm to 216mm wide and it may contain some faults along the out edge.

To sell a board finished size, say 20mm x 195mm (ie a planed 1" x 8"), a supplier would have to use a board at least 1" x 9" or maybe 1" x 10"

Its possible that a very cupped board may not even yield 20mm, so the supplier has to allow a significant percentage of waste included in his PAR pricing to allow.

The reason 4 siders dont necassarily produce flat stock is not because they dont have straightening beds, they do. The issue is that 4 siders have driven feed wheels and a certain amount of downwards pressure is needed to feed well. If flattening on a surface planer the operator can be more subtle in the pressure so can flatten a board much better. We often pre-flatten door stiles before feeding through the 4 sider for this reason.