Which panel saw???

[jj74]

Hi All This is a repeat posting of something I put in the wrong place.
In the market for a new sliding table/panel saw. Have been using an elektra beckum pk250 for a while with various tables I've made around it but generally it's not a great setup so I'm biting the bullet selling it and upgrading. The questions is : To what?
My budget is just under £2000 and I'd like to get a cast iron table, ripping upto say 900mm with I guess an extension of sorts and a sliding carriage with a throat and cut of 1240 or thereabouts. I have a space about 6 metres x 4 metres in which to plonk it. Single phase and scoring blade are also needed.
I work almost exclusively with 18mm sheet materials so depth of cut isn't an issue just the ease of handling 8 x 4 sheets with accuracy etc.
Any help would be greatly, greatly appreciated as I'm finding it hard to compile a sensible list and really don't want to make a duff choice.
Thankyou much. JJ.

ctd.....

Hello elusive advisors.
I am slowly but surely focusing entirely on the Elektra Beckum PKF 255. It seems to be able to do 8 x 4 sheets happily and is competitively priced at around £1800 all in (vat + post).
Plsssss if someone knows it's cack or wobbly or dreadfully innaccurate let me know.
Tar, JJ.

 

[ProShop]

JJ74

Try these


Look here

here

or this


& this !WOW!

or this little baby

Hope this helps.

 

[johnelliott]

I am slowly but surely focusing entirely on the Elektra Beckum PKF 255. It seems to be able to do 8 x 4 sheets happily and is competitively priced at around £1800 all in (vat + post).
Plsssss if someone knows it's cack or wobbly or dreadfully innaccurate let me know.
Tar, JJ.

I used to own one of these machines (the version without the scoring blade). It's a very good machine but does have a couple of drawbacks which may well not be problems for you.
Firstly, you need a good firm floor (my floor is wooden and does move somewhat). The reason is that various supports of the sliding table rest on the floor independently of the main machine, if one of these should move then a tedious resetting procedure will be needed
Secondly, the rip table features a rather awkward extending mechanism, with a split in the rip scale. I found myself constantly having to extend and retract the table in order to rip various widths.

I found it difficult to get the sliding table correctly aligned with the main table due to the clamping and adjusting mechanism.

My conclusion, the EB PKF255V8 is ideal for an enthusiastic and well-heeled hobbyist, but isn't suitable if you are looking to earn a living with it, for that you need to go to the next level (ie a Startrite STA300)

John

 

[Scrit]

In the market for a new sliding table/panel saw. The questions is what?
My budget is just under £2000 and I'd like to get a cast iron table, ripping upto say 900mm with I guess an extension of sorts and a sliding carriage with a throat and cut of 1240 or thereabouts.

Hi JJ

There are four possible approaches:

1. Buy a hobby machine like the PK255
2. Buy the industrial equivalent of option 1.
3. Buy a used industrial panel saw
4. Buy a wall saw

Options 2 to 4 are only feasible secondhand. If you want new then only option will deliver any result - the smallest industrial saws are generally past the £3000 mark new

If you need to do mitre or bevel cuts then option 4 won't cut it either. Almost no wall saw can do bevels or mitres, although if all you are doing is kitchens or bedrooms they work well and take little space in comparison to a panel saw.

If you want to use option 3 or 4 you'll need three phase. Single phase panel saws with scorers are like hens teeth. This type of saw cannot be converted to single phase as a rule as the heavier units have two motors and the biggest motor is normally 5 to 7 HP (or more).

From my own experience if you are going to slice up 8 x 4 sheets on a daily basis you'll need either a sliding table panel saw, preferably with an 8ft table, such as the Altendorf F90, or a wall saw such as a Holz-Her. The F90 has a fixed blade (i.e. no bevel cutting is possible) but should come with a mitre gauge. You'd need to get or build a three phase inverter to run one of these saws but at least that would allow you to run other 3-phase stuff in the future (and 3-phase is generally more available and cheaper to buy s/hand than single phase).

There are some bargain panel saws to be had if you know what to look for - for example this Wadkin 60BGP went for £420+VAT on eBay recently. It's old (1960s or 1970s) but it is cheap enough to make it affordable and because it's based on the venerable Wadkin AGS it may be convertible to single phase by swapping the motors and switch gear (about £250 worth).

You may also be lucky enough to find a Startrite TA300PS - although the ones with the extra scoring blade generally fetch £750 to £1250. This is probably the only scoring saw you'll ever find in single phase. They were built from the mid 1970s to the mid 1980s. If you are going to handle 8 x 4s across then they will need bolting to the floor as will the similar Wadkin AGSP of that period (if you don't they can tip over). Personally this size of saw is very frustrating to use - they aren't stable and you can't do that all-important 8ft rip on them without a lot of messing about and certainly not on the rable, which is why you buy a panel saw in the first case! (BTW the AGSP was the ONLY table saw I've ever bought new). Worst of all they don't have the accuracy that a big slider delivers (because they can't do the really long rips.....).

Altendorf F90s come up from £1100 to £1750 these days (generally 1970s and 1980s machines) although you'll find the odd F45 (tilting arbor), too. I have a soft-spot for the Alts - but then I'm on my second. They are a machine much copied but seldom equalled, with the possible exception of Martin. Avoid the cheap continental copies like SCM, Minimax, Magic, Griggio, Lazarri, Steton, Egurko, Bulleri, Cassadei and even Robland like the plague. They aren't as accurate, don't hold their accuracy and worse have no parts backup (not that you'll need much). Just check out anything you buy carefully - Alts, etc are like Jaguars, cheap enough when old but expensive when new and with parts prices to match.

Lastly you might also find a Wadkin SP12 at the right price. Not a machine I ever liked, but Sgian (Richard) has had one and maybe he'd like to comment?

Whatever you do get be prepared to budget up to a couple of hundred pounds to move the machine. These beasties (the industrial ones) weigh 3/4 to 1 tonne and are big - so they can't be stuffed into the back of a Transit, not even a Luton (because you'd need a FLT to get them out) - and they don't take to rough handling, so a specialised machinery remover is a must.

Sorry if that's not the best of news, but just telling it like it is. If you are in the North let me know and I might be able to help find you something, or at least give anything you do turn up the once over. Been there, done that, and have a WHOLE collection of tee-shirts! :wink:

Regards

Scrit

 

[jj74]

Scrit, John and John.

Thanks very much for your comments guys. Very enlightening! As I don't have so much contact wth other people who do similar things to myself I am often in the dark about tools and stuff.
I guess I was thinking that it wasn't possible for an £1800 sliding panel saw to be anything other than perfect for its intended use. Naive?!

A friend recently mentioned the three phase converter and implied that it was a simple thing to install, so I am now almost exclusively considering a three phase machine.

I failed to mention a couple of things that are now possibly an issue in that I have an available footprint of 6 x 4 metres approx and anything coming in would have to pass through a slightly larger (but not much) than average external doorway. From what I can gather it's possible to dismantle almost everything but is preferable to leave many parts attached to facilitate easy re-setting and adjusting once installed.

Re the vertical panel saw I am familiar with what they look like and can vaguely do but have no knowledge of things such as ease of reptitive cross cutting and what's generally easier on table saw etc. Thus this option is a bit of an unknown and I'm in slightly unfamiliar territory as it is!

Anyway any more ideas would be greatly appreciated, thanks again, really appreciate it, really helpful. Cheers, JJ.

 

[Scrit]

Hi again JJ

I guess I was thinking that it wasn't possible for an £1800 sliding panel saw to be anything other than perfect for its intended use. Naive?!

From our perspective, possibly. Industrial use requires industrial gear, I'm afraid.

A friend recently mentioned the three phase converter and implied that it was a simple thing to install, so I am now almost exclusively considering a three phase machine.

Literally just wire-in the unit to the mains and plug your machine into the front of the phase converter. Just make sure that you have a big enough unit to run your chosen saw. If you are going industrial that will mean 5 to 7.5HP. Add in am allowance for startup load and that works out at (5 x 750 x 1.5) / 240 oor approx. 24A or 35A for 7.5HP (a bit more than a 13A fuse can support so I'd wire a 30A/40A circuit for this). Again from experience I can recommend Transwave as a good unit if you are interested

I failed to mention a couple of things that are now possibly an issue in that I have an available footprint of 6 x 4 metres approx and anything coming in would have to pass through a slightly larger (but not much) than average external doorway.

The footprint would limit you to a 2.5 metre carraige (max) assuming that you need to rip the 8ft length (a must for wardrobes, tall cabs, etc). You'll be tight on the crosscut, but it is still acheivable if yo restrict yourself to 1m right of blade (which covers most things)

From what I can gather it's possible to dismantle almost everything but is preferable to leave many parts attached to facilitate easy re-setting and adjusting once installed.

I'd go out and measure that doorway! The carraige on a standard panel saw just unbolts as does the rear run-off table, the right hand extension and the suspended crown guard assembly (assuming that it has one like the Altendorf). The rip febnce bar will unbolt as well. But you'll still need to have about a metre door width for any industrial saw. I'll measure my F45 in the morning and tell you exactly how wide it is. If it's a Wadkin SP12 or a BGP (see above) they need a bit more space. If your doors are so small, how do you ever get 8 x 4ft sheets in and out?

Re the vertical panel saw I am familiar with what they look like and can vaguely do but have no knowledge of things such as ease of reptitive cross cutting and what's generally easier on table saw etc.

They're basically a panel saw turned through 75 degrees or so and bolted to the wall. The biggest downer is that most s/h ones have had an exceptionally hard life and are, quite frankly, shot. The only ones woprth looking at come out of the likes of B&Q or Focus when they close or revamp stores as they arent normally worked too hard (however they rarely have scoring or scribing units). They take up very little space, but they are about 8 feet tall or more so you need a roller shutter door to get one in. The are almost universally unsuited to mitre cutting (with only a couple of exceptions) and there is not tilt-arbor option available, either. Not all of them have a scoring unit. One of the better makes to look for is Holz-Her, although the cream is probably the Streibig (doubt you'll pick up a Streibig for under £2k, though, they start at around £15k new and go up to £30k+).

Regards

Scrit

 

[johnelliott]

The footprint would limit you to a 2.5 metre carraige (max) assuming that you need to rip the 8ft length (a must for wardrobes, tall cabs, etc). You'll be tight on the crosscut, but it is still acheivable if yo restrict yourself to 1m right of blade (which covers most things)
Scrit

Another approach, and one that would use quite a bit less of the in this case valuable workshop space, would be to use a Festool TS55 and 2.7M guide rail to do the long rips, then use a smaller panel saw to do the crosscuts. This is the way I do it. The thought of getting an 18mm sheet onto a table saw on my own is enough to persuade me.

If your doors are so small, how do you ever get 8 x 4ft sheets in and out?
Scrit

I keep my sheet stock in a building next door. When I bring one into the workshop (on my own) I drag it on its long edge by lifting the front and pulling (I wear rubber gloves for this for better grip). This way I can go through a narrow doorway and only have to lift half the weight. I'm going to trim the edge anyway so the messed up bottom edge is no problem

John

 

[Scrit]

The thought of getting an 18mm sheet onto a table saw on my own is enough to persuade me.

The 8 x 4s (c. 40kg) aren't that bad, John, move the sheet over to the saw on a sheet carrier then simply heave it onto the top of the saw - it's the 10 x 5s (c. 62kg) that take two men, and don't even start me on 12 x 6s (c. 90kg) :twisted:

When I bring one into the workshop (on my own) I drag it on its long edge by lifting the front and pulling (I wear rubber gloves for this for better grip).

I won't normally drag sheet stock along the ground in case it picks up grit. If the grit transfers onto the table you can end up marking veneers or melamine facings and with some of the stuff I cut costing up to £70 or £80+VAT/sheet bulk trade (even more on odd occassions) I can't afford that to happen. My sheet stock racks are all located at the end of the shop right next to the panel saw so it's straight out of the rack flip and onto the saw. I agree with you about the gloves, though - use the yellow ones with rubber pimples for unloading and handling and they make a world of difference

Scrit

 

[jj74]

Hey John

Thanks again for yet another approach!

So when you use your festool have you built a dedicated table with a trench in it so both sides are supported when cut is finished? Or something more simple.

I suppose one of the things which encourages the flat panel saw is the repetitive ripping, meaning I don't have to keep measuring etc. As much of the work I do is all the same depth from the wall (thus same rip) I'm keen to have everything exactly the same size eliminating possibility of measuring errors (as much as you can anyway).

Can you do repetitive ripping with this system? Do you just make width templates when setting up the guide rail each time?

I see Ax... have a festool for £452 and a 1400mm guide for £40 ish. Good/normal deal? (I know I'd potentially need a 2500mm guide or similar).

Anyway thankyou all again. I've learnt more about saws in the past 2 days than the past 6 months of looking through catalogues!

JJ...

 

[ProShop]

I see Ax... have a festool for £452 and a 1400mm guide for £40 ish. Good/normal deal? (I know I'd potentially need a 2500mm guide or similar).


JJ...

If your going to rip sheets day in day out I'd forget the Festool & guide rail IMHO, because it won't last the distance. Don't get me wrong here it's a nice piece of kit., but it I get the impression your looking for longlivity here.

And as Scrit mentioned 8 X 4 sheets (1200mm x 2400mm in old money) aren't that difficult to handle on a panel saw, it's more of a knack than anything else.

John & Scrit mention the yellow gloves if I'm on the same wavelength I use the same ones, ther'e dimpled cloth then dipped in latex and they're incredibly grippy, excellent for holding smooth heavy sheets .

Hope this helps.

 

[jj74]

Hey.

I measured my doorway - it's 1.09metres wide by 1.96 high. This is not quite as bad as I thought previously but may still be awkward.

The saw would be used as a job saw and not as a day in day out production number. That said I'm still looking for a system without too much compromise as compromise is all I've had up until this point! I'd be doing maybe 10 sheets a week into rips of approx 400mm as a guide.

Anyhow as of this evening my radial arm and table saw will be sold and so I'll be needing to figure out what to do quickish.

I don't reckon a vertical panel is the way to go as, judging by comments received, they're costly and besides wouldn't fit through the door (small door + brick wall 3 metres in front of door = complexity)

Hmmm. Oh and I found a festool for cheaper than mentioned previously so pls ignore...

Cheers all, JJ.

 

[Alf]

I suppose one of the things which encourages the flat panel saw is the repetitive ripping, meaning I don't have to keep measuring etc. As much of the work I do is all the same depth from the wall (thus same rip) I'm keen to have everything exactly the same size eliminating possibility of measuring errors (as much as you can anyway).

Can you do repetitive ripping with this system? Do you just make width templates when setting up the guide rail each time?

JJ, how about the EZ Smart system? The newest add-on is a repeater/fence/square thing.

Cheers, Alf

 

[johnelliott]

If your going to rip sheets day in day out I'd forget the Festool & guide rail IMHO, because it won't last the distance. Don't get me wrong here it's a nice piece of kit., but it I get the impression your looking for longlivity here.

Can't agree with that at all. The only part on the Festool saw that will wear significantly are the wear-pads cast into the base plate. Mine lasted 8 months of full time use (at the time I didn't have a table saw at all, and all my cutting was done with the Festool, I'm a full-time kitchen maker) before needing replacement at Festool's expense. If it was used in conjunction with a table saw then I doubt that the wear would ever become significant.

One of the amazing things with the Festool is the quality of the edge, square, straight and smooth. It needs to be seen to be believed.

And as Scrit mentioned 8 X 4 sheets (1200mm x 2400mm in old money) aren't that difficult to handle on a panel saw, it's more of a knack than anything else.

What's more significant for many of us is the amount of space that will be consumed. Keeping to imperial, just the sheet itself, during ripping, is going to take up 16+ feet. A saw big enough to do this, and to stop one or other of the two pieces of material dropping off after cutting is going to require a lot of width as well
OTOH, to rip sheets lengthwise with the Festool system all I need is an 8x4 table with a sacrificial 6mm mdf top with a couple of feet manouvring room on two sides.

John

 

[johnelliott]

I suppose one of the things which encourages the flat panel saw is the repetitive ripping, meaning I don't have to keep measuring etc. As much of the work I do is all the same depth from the wall (thus same rip) I'm keen to have everything exactly the same size eliminating possibility of measuring errors (as much as you can anyway).

Can you do repetitive ripping with this system? Do you just make width templates when setting up the guide rail each time?

JJ, how about the EZ Smart system? The newest add-on is a repeater/fence/square thing.

Cheers, Alf

It may well be that the EZ guide rail system is superior to the Festool guide rail system as it addresses the main weakness of the Festool ie repeat ripping. I've always found the biggest problem with the Festool is not getting a nice straight edge, that's virtually automatic, the problem is to cut another nice straight edge PARALLEL to the first one.

Anyone who fancies a guide rail system would be well advised to look at the EZ stuff.
Thing about the Festool, though, is the quality of the saw itself.

John

 

[Jake]

Have you asked about the "Side stop SA-LR32", John?

Seems to be listed as a guide accessory for routers, and the picture is unclear and little explanation given but it looks as if it may enable one to hook the guiderail off a reference edge by a given distance.

http://www.idealtools.com.au/prod2616.htm

It is going to be too small as it is, but maybe you could fit your own longer hex rods?

 

[RogerS]

Hey John

Thanks again for yet another approach!

So when you use your festool have you built a dedicated table with a trench in it so both sides are supported when cut is finished? Or something more simple.

JJ...

I use a sacrificial sheet of fibre board (8x4) laid flat on the floor and cut directly onto that. No need to lift the board up onto a table

 

[tim]

It may well be that the EZ guide rail system is superior to the Festool guide rail system as it addresses the main weakness of the Festool ie repeat ripping. I've always found the biggest problem with the Festool is not getting a nice straight edge, that's virtually automatic, the problem is to cut another nice straight edge PARALLEL to the first one.

Thats my only gripe with it as well. Its very difficult (esp with the longer rails) to get the square cut that is so simple on Panel saws. There is too much human error factor here which does affect speed of operation. That said for someone working alone, its great to get one super clean edge and then complete the parallel cut on the TS with the now more manageably sized piece.

Cheers

Tim

 

[RogerS]

It may well be that the EZ guide rail system is superior to the Festool guide rail system as it addresses the main weakness of the Festool ie repeat ripping. I've always found the biggest problem with the Festool is not getting a nice straight edge, that's virtually automatic, the problem is to cut another nice straight edge PARALLEL to the first one.

Thats my only gripe with it as well. Its very difficult (esp with the longer rails) to get the square cut that is so simple on Panel saws. There is too much human error factor here which does affect speed of operation. That said for someone working alone, its great to get one super clean edge and then complete the parallel cut on the TS with the now more manageably sized piece.

Cheers

Tim

Just thinking laterally here. We're used to lining up the Festool guide rail with the cutting edge being the rubber strip...but if we considered the other edge (ie the metal one) and made up a couple of pieces of MDF with two small fences hanging below (dimensions to suit the desired size)..one drops over the edge you've just cut and the other drops over the metal edge of the rail then shouldn't the two edges now be parallel? Agreed not ideal but in the absence of a panel saw ...?? Just a thought.

 

[Alf]

Thing about the Festool, though, is the quality of the saw itself.

I believe I've read of people putting the Festool with the EZ. There's a loooooooooong thread about it on Knots - which I've given up even trying to keep up with.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Jake]

That's pretty much exactly what I think that accessory is supposed to do. If not, it could be adapted to do it. It locks in the channel at the rear, setting a stand-off distance from the reference edge. Set that stand-off distance as (desired cut-width - guiderail width) and cut the panel from the inside as it were.

Couple of bits of longer hex rod and some (small) scale tape and you'd have repeatability and ease of setting. Or just start from scratch, using a t-nut that will fit the festool channel (must be available as a spare part, there are loads of their stops based on that same profile system, for, eg, the precisio saws)