Which panel saw???

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Roger

Steve Maskery has done exactly as you describe by building a measure for behind the Festool guide. It works to +/- 0.00 accuracy.

It is excellent.

Cheers
Neil

 

[RogerS]

Hi Roger

Steve Maskery has done exactly as you describe by building a measure for behind the Festool guide. It works to +/- 0.00 accuracy.

It is excellent.

Cheers
Neil

Pictures! Pictures! We want pictures :wink:

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Roger

Pictures! Pictures! We want pictures :wink:

I don't think that's possible until it's published in Good Woodworking. :wink:

Cheers
Neil

 

[Jake]

Is it based around a parallelogram?

 

[Scrit]

OK then, from the point of view of someone who is a production woodworker (sometimes!) to get the maximum efficiency out of a panel saw takes two men (or women, or any combination......) - a saw man and a helper taking off at the back and stacking. It also requires a fork lift truck to load flat from at the friont. With a helper I can and have sawn 30+ sheets of MDF in a day (that's pushing 1.5 tonnes and 300 or so cuts including dust cuts - leaves you completely drained), HOWEVER, if you are regularly operating at that level a panel saw simply isn't fast enough or efficient enough and you have to start looking at either a beam saw:

or a nest-based CNC router with an 8 x 4ft (or larger) bed to cut your components. In other words serious big bucks.

Sliding table panel saws seem to work well enough up to 10 or 15 sheets a day but after they simply aren't efficient enough, even if like me you load from a fork lift truck half the time. Despite the well intentioned advice, I feel it is impossible to consistently and accurately machine sheet stock with lightweight tools - put simply they are slow and inefficient to use and their accuracy is at best questionable. Before anyone accuses me of bias here, I've got and have used a Bosch straight edge system with the GKS86B plunge saw for about 4 years now - it was Bosch's answer to the Festool (and the earlier Holz-Her) plunge saws - but I feel it's place is in flooring (at which it excels) or roughing work. For me it has its uses in carving-up oversize sheets from time to time. The only truely accurate way to consistently parallel cut sheet stock into narrow strips is to use a sliding table panel saw with a parallel cut device such as the Altendorf PALIN or PALIN D:

The digital version, the PALIN D is repeatable to 0.1mm over 3 metres, so good enough I think. This is one of the solutions to John Elliotts parallel strip ripping conundrum. Another is to place the crosscut fence in the forward position on the sliding table carraige, make a short edge then a long edge dust/squaring cuts on the sheet, then rip your stock using the carraige fence as the datum and with the rip fence slid right back acting as a length stop. That method works until you have about 600mm of stock left against the crosscut fence - so cut planning is essential to get the strips out before cutting the rectangles. The carraige NOT the rip fence is used for accuracy.

Scrit

 

[ProShop]

If your going to rip sheets day in day out I'd forget the Festool & guide rail IMHO, because it won't last the distance. Don't get me wrong here it's a nice piece of kit., but it I get the impression your looking for longlivity here.

Can't agree with that at all. The only part on the Festool saw that will wear significantly are the wear-pads cast into the base plate. Mine lasted 8 months of full time use
John

Sorry John, but that was my point really, ie; Longlivity.

 

[johnelliott]

If your going to rip sheets day in day out I'd forget the Festool & guide rail IMHO, because it won't last the distance. Don't get me wrong here it's a nice piece of kit., but it I get the impression your looking for longlivity here.

Can't agree with that at all. The only part on the Festool saw that will wear significantly are the wear-pads cast into the base plate. Mine lasted 8 months of full time use
John

Sorry John, but that was my point really, ie; Longlivity.

I think you must have missed the bit where I said that I was using the Festool WITHOUT a table saw in a full time kitchen-making business. Now that I have a table saw I shall be using the Festool a lot less. At the risk of repeating myself I believe that the wear pad problem will not re occur. Obviously Festool agree with me. If you had used any of their equipment you would know what I mean.

Perhaps it is time for JJ74 to say whether or not he has room for the type of equipment being suggested by you and Scrit ie equipment large enough to rip an 8x4 sheet lengthwise. We know that there is enough room to get it in, but will there be enough room to work around it?
If not, then carrying out the long rips with a guide rail system, then moving the pieces to a smaller panel saw, would seem to make very good sense

John

 

[Scrit]

Perhaps it is time for JJ74 to say whether or not he has room for the type of equipment being suggested by you and Scrit ie equipment large enough to rip an 8x4 sheet lengthwise. We know that there is enough room to get it in, but will there be enough room to work around it?

Agreed, but the 8ft rip isn't essential - it does make the job considerably quicker, more accurate and easier. In the long term when you finally go there, John, you'll see what I mean :wink:

If there isn't the space for a full size panel saw a smaller one will still do the job, especially if you rough-out to approx. size using a saw and a straight edge - but if you have a table saw with scorer and carraige that is a more suitable and durable system for accurate and speedy work than a saw/straight edge system - even if that is a Festool. And remember when it comes to bangs per buck I've shown that it is possible to get a s/hand half-size INDUSTRIAL panel saw for little more than a Festool saw and straight edge - and I know which I'd rather have.

Just a different way of arriving at the same end product, but if you are trying to grow a business time is really money IMO

Regards

Scrit

 

[Jake]

Just a different way of arriving at the same end product, but if you are trying to grow a business time is really money IMO

That's the key - capitalism innit.

 

[scratchy]

Options 2 to 4 are only feasible secondhand. If you want new then only option will deliver any result - the smallest industrial saws are generally past the £3000 mark new

I note from the other thread that John has bought the Startrite STA300 and says he is happy with that. This is £2,199 plus VAT according to the Startrite website. I don't have personal experience of this or the Elektra machine - but the Startrite certainly looks like a much more industrial machine for the extra £700 - cast tables, big support arm for those heavy sheets, solid fence and rail etc. Maybe John could elaborate on its pro's and cons.

Whatever ends up on your short list I would just recommend making sure you see the machines in the flesh and if possible get a demo, test cutting your material. £2,000 is alot to spend if you get it wrong and a few hundred quid well worth spending to get the right machine and avoid an expensive mistake.

I notice more suppliers seem to be offering dem rooms - Scheppach, Record Power etc.

Good Luck

Scratchy

 

[Scrit]

A lot of people were going on about about the Festools, but I was reminded this evening by a colleague of another German maker, Mafell and I wondered if any of you had seen one of these?

It's a Mafell PSS3000 portable panel saw system. I can't recommend from experience, but I have seen them demonstrated at several trade shows over the past 4 or so years and they look impressive. They are certainly able to make a very clean cut. They are self-powered and can manage a scoring cut before making the main cut on MFC, etc. The length of cut is 2.8 metres. Downside is that they cost around £1100 at Power Tool Direct - but you can get cross cut fences to handle John's parallel strips conundrum.

For those less well healed, like me, Mafell do a plunge saw with scoring facility called the KST55 (complete with diamond saw blade if required):

Although not yet listed by NMA on their web site this interesting manual saw has a scoring facility built in which I find intriguing. Again, I haven't used one, but I do own several Mafell tools and the build quality is well up to Festool standards (after all it is Mafell who make the 2000watt Festool router). There's a fuller description on the Mafell web site under "sawing/KST". You can also see the new worm drive cordless saw, the KSP 55 / 24 V

I'd certainly consider the KST when my Bosch expires, but I'm still of the opinion that you can't beat a proper (8ft+) panel saw for sheet materials

Scrit

 

[ProShop]

I have seen one of these Scrit some time back, but never seen one in use.

I had the pleasure of using the Mafell plunge saw and Flexiguide system with the cross cut fence recently, just roll it up and put it back in it's box when you've finished. The quality of the cut etc was very good and I used the xcut guide and it certainly works well. And a fair bit cheaper than the Festool.

I also have a Mafell ros which I found better than the Festool.

 

[ProShop]

I have seen one of these Scrit some time back, but never seen one in use.

I had the pleasure of using the Mafell plunge saw and Flexiguide system with the cross cut fence recently, I say pleasure because it was just that... a real pleasure to use, and then just roll it up and put it back in it's box when you've finished. The quality of the cut etc was very good and I used the X cut guide and it certainly works well. And a fair bit cheaper than the Festool.

I also have a Mafell ros which I found better than the Festool.

 

[ivan]

I've been following this thread with interest, as I've long carried a latent hope that a moderately priced scoring panel saw would make me jump for joy...ah, the naivite of old age.
Mafell: I thought the 'inbuilt scoring' feature came courtesy of the retractable riving knife - you make a shallow cut backwards to score the top surface, and then plunge to full depth and make a forward pass. The result's well worth the small amount of extra work. It's the positioning of the guide that takes the time....
Ripping 8x4s: My DW long arm radial has an 8 ft table and 8ft. fence,up to 3ft deep at the outfeed end, and some pull out rollers (the welder was a Godsend). The (mdf) table parts were ripped on an indusrtrial panel saw and finished with epoxy floor paint which is surprisingly durable. The fence is straight to within a few thou, checked as well as poss. with a borrowed 1m engineers strainght edge and feeler gauge. Ripping 8x4s is a doddle and it doesn't take up much room. Results on veneered mdf are acceptable with a very high atb blade. The secondhand saw and steel rhs cost less then 500 quid. I use a bandsaw to rip tree wood.
Panel saw? What about the central european panel saws, like Rojek and others? They appear to have some real beef, but you can't really tell about accuracy until you start cutting.

 

[Scrit]

The full-size Rojek's I've seen (4 or 5 on shows, etc - never actually seen one in a shop) are a bit rough round the edges and are similarly priced to the Robland Z-2500/Z-3200 (which you do see out in shops). Frankly I wouldn't have either as I'm not convinced about the quality of the rules, stops and carriage bearings. My experience is that Altendorf, Martin and Panhans are the top brands, followed by Felder (a bit lighter). The key is durability - you'll find 20+ year old unrebuilt German panel saws in daily trade use all over the place. The Italian and Spanish copies (including SCM) don't seem to have that sort of lifespan. And as for Wadkin, they weren't ever regarded as the best in panel saws, but they sold a lot on name/reputation (as the only British maker ever to make a true panel saw) - secondhand they are a bit overpriced IMO.

As a matter of comparison when I sold my last Altendorf (an F90 non-tilt, 2.5m slider, circa 1983) 5 years back the dealer sold it same day for £1500 + VAT. Price depends as much as condition on this sort of kit.

Scrit