Which Design Book?

[finneyb]

Golden ratio is a red herring. I wouldn't pay it any attention.

Maybe you just need to keep things strictly pure and simple - think "sphere, hemisphere, cylinder, ovoid" etc and avoid deviations. If it's nearly a sphere make it a perfect sphere, if it's nearly a cylinder make it a perfect cylinder, etc etc

Golden ratio certainly isn't a red herring.
Look around at things that please the eye and look for the 1.68 to 1 ratio - it will be there or thereabouts .
Nothing wrong in keeping things simple but limiting to sphere etc is far too mechanistic and devoid of original thought.

Brian

 

[Dalboy]

Bob I think most things have been covered with the neck and also loosing the foot when adding a neck to a form try to take it from the same piece of wood and where it joins us a small bead which will help to hide it. Another distracting thing is the shoulder it is too bold or even better get rid of it

Like the bead idea Dal. But the neck is from the same piece? Does it look like it was stuck on after then? It's just a continuous turning from one solid block of 4" square oak.

Yes the neck looks like a separate piece because of the sharp transition that Pete pointed out, how did you hollow it

 

[KimG]

Golden ratio certainly isn't a red herring.
Look around at things that please the eye and look for the 1.68 to 1 ratio - it will be there or thereabouts .
Nothing wrong in keeping things simple but limiting to sphere etc is far too mechanistic and devoid of original thought.

Brian

That pretty much is the essence of what determines a good design, things that please the eye, they have a balance, and an energy, a flow even. Poor designs seem somehow graceless, lumpy and lifeless. A well designed piece should make you want to pick it up, it looks tactile, you know it will feel nice in the hand.

You can get away with poorer designs of course as not everyone sees things the same way, but a good design will look good to everyone and will have a lasting quality no poor design will ever have.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Drilled it with a 1/2" inch forstener to create a well (before I started shaping) and then used a swan neck Robert sorby handle with a hamlet hollowing tip. The inside of the form isn't entirely hollowed.

 

[Jacob]

Golden ratio is a red herring. I wouldn't pay it any attention.

Maybe you just need to keep things strictly pure and simple - think "sphere, hemisphere, cylinder, ovoid" etc and avoid deviations. If it's nearly a sphere make it a perfect sphere, if it's nearly a cylinder make it a perfect cylinder, etc etc

Golden ratio certainly isn't a red herring.
Look around at things that please the eye and look for the 1.68 to 1 ratio - it will be there or thereabouts .

And every other ratio you choose to look for.1/2, 1/3, 2/3, etc etc.
"Thereabouts" is not good enough - it is either 1:1.68 or it isn't. It's like saying "roughly exactly 1:1.68"

Nothing wrong in keeping things simple but limiting to sphere etc is far too mechanistic and devoid of original thought.

Brian

It's sloppy "original thought" which seems to cause the problems. I'd say copy copy, be mechanistic, keep it simple, until you have learned the language. Aim to be competent, not "creative".

Google "basic design" and all sorts of interesting stuff turns up - not least the design education movement of the same name (book by Sausmarez).
This is good (golden ratio here too!) -
http://www.rsscse-edu.org.uk/tsj/wp-con ... kimber.pdf

PS this perhaps answer to OPs question?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Yup I think that's about right actually Jacob. Sloppy original thought and the confusion between competent and creative. Rather sobering for anyone with an ego to defend but I think, perfectly reasonable in my case.

I'm sure that's why I'm seeking out design as the answer because it is the basic shapes I'm after, not so much the how to turn, rather the what to turn.

All the discussion about transitions, flow, matching one bit of a piece to another is really good input and I'm grateful for people taking the effort for the constructive criticism. It's all helping. You have a really good attitude to build the foundations right before you move on. That's whats needed here I think.

 

[Grahamshed]

If you do boot sales and the like keep an eye open for books on antique ceramics. Most of the shapes are classic and easily copyable.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Of course, there is no law that makes a turner use golden proportion any more than there is a law that makes a photographer use the rule of thirds - it's just that things that do follow those rules tend to look right. Being pedantic, it's 1 : 1.618, though I'm sure that the odd .0062 doesn't really matter.

 

[Jacob]

I've ordered the book, having talked myself into it. Forgotten all about it - I had it years ago when everybody had to have it but haven't seen it for a long time. Borrowed I expect.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Can I borrow it from you when it arrives

 

[ericdockum]

Thanks for the interesting discussion folks, I just tried to borrow a copy of the design book from my local library, no luck. Tried a well known auction site and found a lot of them, ordered a second edition (revised) for £2.74 posted. Not bad when you consider the library charge £1.75 to reserve a book. (Last time I reserved a book they couldn't actually find it on the shelves, but insisted on still charging me the fee).

Only downside I can see is that the book may well increase the gap between the expectation in in my head and the abilities in my hands... Situation normal.

(I am not actually mean, just trying to retain what little I have accumulated over the years. That's my story anyway.)

 

[Jacob]

The thing about books like that is to not treat them as instruction manuals but more just to browse for whatever you find interesting, if anything. And you need to browse other books (and objects) around the subject.
There are no magic formulas - the golden ratio is a bit mythical - get yer tape out and have a look for yourself.

 

[Vic Perrin]

Golden Ratio ? Had a look on the tinternet Oh Dear ! Think I will stick with my Golden Eye and Silver Touch Method ! Final inspection by the Missus and if it doesn't pass muster bin it.

Vic.

 

[Roger C]

Bob do you make any sketches of what you want to turn. If not ok next if you have wine glasses, brandy balloons, vases for flowers in fact any vessel make copies of them in wood. Doing this will give you a good idea about design. All these items are in your house because you liked them when you or your partner purchased them. When out shopping take pics of shapes you find interesting even through the shop window this is called stealing with the eyes and phone not a crime and you wont be locked up. The 1/3 rule is only a guide line and not gospel. Cheers Roger

 

[bugbear]

Being pedantic, it's 1 : 1.618, though I'm sure that the odd .0062 doesn't really matter.

If we're being pedantic, it's one of the more famous irrational numbers, so you need a few more decimals

BugBear

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Bob do you make any sketches of what you want to turn. If not ok next if you have wine glasses, brandy balloons, vases for flowers in fact any vessel make copies of them in wood. Doing this will give you a good idea about design. All these items are in your house because you liked them when you or your partner purchased them. When out shopping take pics of shapes you find interesting even through the shop window this is called stealing with the eyes and phone not a crime and you wont be locked up. The 1/3 rule is only a guide line and not gospel. Cheers Roger

I can't draw to save my life Roger. I get the point though which is to open my eyes and use the useful objects nearby. Just since I started this thread I've really begun observing natural forms and it does have an impact. I'll post a bud vase I've nearly finished when I've finished waxing and parted it soon enough. I noticed towards the final shaping that the curves just weren't flowing so went back and really carefully eyed them and I'm much happier with the outcome. Jacob was spot on when he diagnosed a failure to observe the basics. It's ironic because when I started turning I was fanatical about just that and over time, and in a hurry to experiment with different ideas, I've gone and forgotten the prime directive...that of "flow".

On the drawing front, I would like to experiment with software that allows smooth curves because that can overcome my lack of drawing skill. I can design outlines and then print. Anyone got any ideas if a simple, preferably freeware package exists?

 

[Bodrighy]

I am fortunate that my partner is a top end furniture designer and have also had input of ideas and what to look for from some other wood turners. Bottom line though it is all about getting an eye for what works and what doesn't and that comes with practice and experience. Yo will never get it right every time. I was talking to a turner who is known for his designer work and he told me that for every piece he puts out for sale there are at least a couple stuck on a shelf as a reminder how not to do it. Personally I love oriental work so that has been a major source of shapes and design for me but even there I don't like everything I see. Whatever you do don't get so tied up in trying to get the perfect shape and design that you stop enjoying turning. It can happen.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Bob do you make any sketches of what you want to turn. If not ok next if you have wine glasses, brandy balloons, vases for flowers in fact any vessel make copies of them in wood. Doing this will give you a good idea about design. All these items are in your house because you liked them when you or your partner purchased them. When out shopping take pics of shapes you find interesting even through the shop window this is called stealing with the eyes and phone not a crime and you wont be locked up. The 1/3 rule is only a guide line and not gospel. Cheers Roger

I can't draw to save my life Roger. I get the point though which is to open my eyes and use the useful objects nearby. Just since I started this thread I've really begun observing natural forms and it does have an impact. I'll post a bud vase I've nearly finished when I've finished waxing and parted it soon enough. I noticed towards the final shaping that the curves just weren't flowing so went back and really carefully eyed them and I'm much happier with the outcome. Jacob was spot on when he diagnosed a failure to observe the basics. It's ironic because when I started turning I was fanatical about just that and over time, and in a hurry to experiment with different ideas, I've gone and forgotten the prime directive...that of "flow".

On the drawing front, I would like to experiment with software that allows smooth curves because that can overcome my lack of drawing skill. I can design outlines and then print. Anyone got any ideas if a simple, preferably freeware package exists?

Get a pencil and some paper. You can do it. Maybe crepe at first but it will get better. You aren't doing it for show, just for your own information. Good quality HB and a rubber.
It's really useful not least because it makes you look at things really closely and remember them well.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

You're bloody determined to make me do some actual work aren't you Jacob

But (gnashing teeth). You're probably right....again.

 

[Grahamshed]

Just since I started this thread I've really begun observing natural forms

Careful Bob. You can get arrested for that nowadays.