When does ripping become re-sawing?

[Geofract]

Having only just recently bought a TS, I am still reading around trying to learn as much as possible before trying out anything complex.

I happened by chance to read a thread in the Jigs section about re-sawing on a TS, and was really glad I had! I suspect otherwise I could have done something quite dangerous.

I started to wonder when ripping becomes re-sawing? I think it's related to board width versus thickness. If I cut a 4x2 into a 2x2, that's a rip cut. If I cut a 4x2 into a 1x2 that's a re-saw. Is it that simple?

I imagine problems with re-sawing on a TS are related to the stability of the piece, squareness of the blade/saw setup, friction (especially with a deep cut), and perhaps the ability of the blade the to expel waste material (blade should have a deep gullet?) That's all I can think of as a newbie - how did I do?

Could someone possibly recommend a good book regarding TS use, preferable british/english, with good info about TS safety. I don't really want to lose fingers/hands as a result of ignorance.

P.s. Can I ask, when ripping material on a TS against a fence - should the waste part always be to the left of the blade - if that makes sense?

 

[Steve Maskery]

Hi G
It's a good q, but basically you have it. It is cutting a board so that it ends up the same length and the same width, but only half as thick Generally I would use a BS rather than a TS for such an operation, because the board is narrow on the table and that often makes it interfere with the action of the guard.

Yes, the workpiece is the piece between blade and fence, the waste is on the left.

I'm not aware of a British book on the TS, but there is a series of British DVDs on the subject, including one specifically on TS safety!

 

[Geofract]

Thanks for the reply Steve, that helps. Sadly I don't have a bandsaw right now, so I will avoid re-saw type cuts.

This subject also makes me wonder about the merits of cutting Tenons on a TS. When the workpiece is perpendicular to the table, that is in a sense similar a re-saw cut I guess. I do see a lot of Tenon Jigs via youtube that attach to fences, which appear robust enough - but what do I know!. Though I guess making a jig that utilises the mitre tracks maybe safer.

Meantime I will try and seek out the TS DVD's you mention.

 

[paulm]

Meantime I will try and seek out the TS DVD's you mention.

There's a clue in the strap line at the bottom of Steve's posts :lol:

Cheers, Paul

 

[Geofract]

hehe

 

[condeesteso]

Meantime I will try and seek out the TS DVD's you mention.

shouldn't take long, clue's in Steve's avatar

p.s. and his link at bottom

 

[Geofract]

Thanks, I got it courtesy of Paul

 

[ayuce]

It's better to learn what kind of cuts dangerous on table saw, rather than trying to describe re-sawing. Point of view of relatively inexperienced woodworker, might be true or not, for me re-sawing ops:

- Lets say cross section of wood is a * b, a > b so a=face, b=edge of board. . If you need to do a rip cut along the edge, while edge of the board sits on the table, please don't use table saw.
- If the wood higher than table saw's blade's max. height, please don't use table saw.
- If you want to slice a log into boards, please don't use table saw.

 

[Steve Maskery]

This subject also makes me wonder about the merits of cutting Tenons on a TS. When the workpiece is perpendicular to the table, that is in a sense similar a re-saw cut I guess. I do see a lot of Tenon Jigs via youtube that attach to fences, which appear robust enough - but what do I know!. Though I guess making a jig that utilises the mitre tracks maybe safer.

If you are thinking of cutting tenons on the TS can I suggest that you view most of the American-style jigs with a great deal of skepticism.The fundamental problem is that you have to remove, or at the very least modify, the riving knife and get rid of the crown guard. On most consumer TSs the guard is mounted on the RK, so removing the RK removes the guard anyway. On nearly every TS tenon jig I have seen, the cut is made with an unguarded blade. This is dangerous practice and particularly so for anyone at the beginning of the learning curve.

If you want to see how I guard mine, I have a clip on YT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XXftwA ... --Y4lVORYA

It's slow (the film, not the jig!) and not exactly pacy, and I'll get round to making a snazzier trailer one day, but it will give you the idea. I build the guarding into the jig and use an auxilliary magnetic guard as well. It doesn't get in the way at all and I get protected from anything nasty. Even if you build a simpler jig and don't mind having to adjust it for each cheek, at least consider using a similar guarding system. There is no excuse for using an unguarded blade.

Rather than yawning through the entire film, I suggest you start to watch at about 2:32. There is an advert at the end.

As to using the fence versus the mitre track, I have built two versions of mine, one which rides on the fence, one in the mitre track, but both working in the same way. Both work, but the track version is heavier because it has an extra layer in it to take the positioning mechanism. Personally I prefer the one that rides on the rip fence, but I do know that some people have fences that do not lend themselves quite so readily to riding jigs as mine does. In terms of safety I don't think there is anything in it, it's guarding that is the main challenge.

But don't, for heaven's sake, think of building a jig that requires you to hold the workpiece with your hands whilst it passes over the blade. I've seen several like that, including IIRC, on the front cover of FWW. It's not a good idea. Not even a little bit.

Good luck

 

[RogerP]

Another point is that many table saws are supplied with a fence that is far too long for ripping solid timber. The fence should end at the front edge of the blade otherwise there's a good likelihood that, with the relief of stresses in the wood, it will pinch on the blade

If the saw has a fence that extends right across the table an adjustable supplementary fence should be fitted to it that does end at the front of the blade.

 

[Geofract]

- Lets say cross section of wood is a * b, a > b so a=face, b=edge of board. . If you need to do a rip cut along the edge, while edge of the board sits on the table, please don't use table saw.
- If the wood higher than table saw's blade's max. height, please don't use table saw.
- If you want to slice a log into boards, please don't use table saw.

Picking up on your second point, does that also mean you would not advise cutting a rebate with a TS? It is essentially the same cut I guess.

 

[Geofract]

This subject also makes me wonder about the merits of cutting Tenons on a TS. When the workpiece is perpendicular to the table, that is in a sense similar a re-saw cut I guess. I do see a lot of Tenon Jigs via youtube that attach to fences, which appear robust enough - but what do I know!. Though I guess making a jig that utilises the mitre tracks maybe safer.

If you are thinking of cutting tenons on the TS can I suggest that you view most of the American-style jigs with a great deal of skepticism.The fundamental problem is that you have to remove, or at the very least modify, the riving knife and get rid of the crown guard. On most consumer TSs the guard is mounted on the RK, so removing the RK removes the guard anyway. On nearly every TS tenon jig I have seen, the cut is made with an unguarded blade. This is dangerous practice and particularly so for anyone at the beginning of the learning curve.

If you want to see how I guard mine, I have a clip on YT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XXftwA ... --Y4lVORYA

It's slow (the film, not the jig!) and not exactly pacy, and I'll get round to making a snazzier trailer one day, but it will give you the idea. I build the guarding into the jig and use an auxilliary magnetic guard as well. It doesn't get in the way at all and I get protected from anything nasty. Even if you build a simpler jig and don't mind having to adjust it for each cheek, at least consider using a similar guarding system. There is no excuse for using an unguarded blade.

Rather than yawning through the entire film, I suggest you start to watch at about 2:32. There is an advert at the end.

As to using the fence versus the mitre track, I have built two versions of mine, one which rides on the fence, one in the mitre track, but both working in the same way. Both work, but the track version is heavier because it has an extra layer in it to take the positioning mechanism. Personally I prefer the one that rides on the rip fence, but I do know that some people have fences that do not lend themselves quite so readily to riding jigs as mine does. In terms of safety I don't think there is anything in it, it's guarding that is the main challenge.

But don't, for heaven's sake, think of building a jig that requires you to hold the workpiece with your hands whilst it passes over the blade. I've seen several like that, including IIRC, on the front cover of FWW. It's not a good idea. Not even a little bit.

Good luck

Thanks Steve, a very informative reply. Lots to think about there, and your video was very interesting.

You tube is pretty much dominated by TS stuff from across the pond, which is where I have got a lot of ideas - good and bad ideas I imagine. But since you mention guards, I can't really remember seeing many jigs with guards on YT, let alone TSs with crown guards in place. Frightening really, and serious food for thought.

I guess I could take the cheeks of a Tenon with the work piece in a sled, horizontal to the table, but would need to design a more safety conscious/guarded sled than I have seen so far. Something that requires no fingers in the Bay of the sled would be good.

What's IIRC btw?

 

[Geofract]

Another point is that many table saws are supplied with a fence that is far too long for ripping solid timber. The fence should end at the front edge of the blade otherwise there's a good likelihood that, with the relief of stresses in the wood, it will pinch on the blade

If the saw has a fence that extends right across the table an adjustable supplementary fence should be fitted to it that does end at the front of the blade.

Another good point to bear in mind, Thanks Roger! I watched Steve's video on this subject, which was very useful.

Does this also apply to Ply, or just Timber?

 

[Newbie_Neil]

What's IIRC btw?

If I remember correctly.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Another good point to bear in mind, Thanks Roger! I watched Steve's video on this subject, which was very useful.

Does this also apply to Ply, or just Timber?

The short rip fence is for ripping, hence its name! Ripping is cutting timber down the grain.

Cutting plywood is not ripping it is panel-cutting. As such, the material is a lot more stable than timber, and springing is much less of a problem. The wider point with ply, however, is that it is generally used to make wide pieces, wider than timber and so the fence is further from the blade for many panel cuts than it usually is for most rip cuts. That matters, because the further away from the blaed the fence is, the less support it offers. So you end up, if you are ot careful, practically freehanding the piece through the blade. That is not a good idea. You can easily get kickback like that and I have a scar to prove it.

So in a nutshell it is a trade-off between risk-avoidance and support. Short rip fence for ripping, full-length fence for panel-cutting.

S

 

[Steve Maskery]

But don't, for heaven's sake, think of building a jig that requires you to hold the workpiece with your hands whilst it passes over the blade. I've seen several like that, including IIRC, on the front cover of FWW. It's not a good idea. Not even a little bit.

It doesn't help when Fine Woodworking, arguably the most influential source of information on the net, send s out emails like the one I received this morning, inviting me to watch this:, describing it as "smart". Yes it's an efficient way, and the point about shoulder-to-shoulder distances is one worth making, but almost all the practice in that clip is NOT A GOOD IDEA. Yes he has a Saw Stop. I don't. But relying on technology to save your fingers is, at best, second-best practice. What happens the day that the SS fails, because someone switched it off to cut some aluminum (sic) and forgot to switch it back on again? It is MUCH BETTER not to get into the position where you need to rely on the SS. He is taking an unnecessary risk.

If anyone thinks I'm a bit OTT about TS guarding it is because my first TS consisted of a B&D hand-held TS that I screwed to the underside of a piece of MDF in a workmate. The blade went round, whey-hey, I had a TS!. OK, so there was no fence (who needs one anyway?) no RK (what's one of those?), no mitre slot and no blade guard. They are for pansies, aren't they?

I did one job with that and two things happened.

The first was that I accidentally touched the blade whilst it was powered. Not the teeth, the plate of the blade, but that was scary enough. The second was that I got an immense pain in my finger. I thought I must have cut it off. But when I looked it was a hornet sting. Excruciating. I could just as easily moved my hand rapidly into the blade as away from it with an attack like that. That was the last time I used that rig and I've never used an unguarded TS since. Ah, not quite. When I bought my first TS, I cut a piece of 1/8" ply freehand. It kicked back, as you would expect, and hit my arm like a knife. I had a big lump and I felt sick for three days.

I was very lucky that I learned my lesson early. Since then I've not been lucky, I've been sensible, and I try to pass on whatever I have learned to others who are at the stage I was back then.

I have 10 digits and a scar.

 

[custard]

Leaving aside the safety aspects there's another reason to approach re-sawing with caution. In the majority of cases the re-sawn board will cup.

If you need two 18mm finished boards from a single 50mm rough sawn board you'd have to be fairly lucky to get away with it. Take out the kerf, take out the planing down of the four sawn faces and it all seems do-able in theory. In practise you'll find the two boards will almost always cup, so you end up with two 12mm or 14mm boards that aren't even particularly stable and may well cup further in the future.

Experienced woodworkers often allow 50% wastage for a reason!

 

[ayuce]

- Lets say cross section of wood is a * b, a > b so a=face, b=edge of board. . If you need to do a rip cut along the edge, while edge of the board sits on the table, please don't use table saw.
- If the wood higher than table saw's blade's max. height, please don't use table saw.
- If you want to slice a log into boards, please don't use table saw.

Picking up on your second point, does that also mean you would not advise cutting a rebate with a TS? It is essentially the same cut I guess.

Sort of, but rebate cut usually not too deep, less dangerous than resawing. As an unexperienced woodworker, still i couldn't convince myself rebate cut on TS. Need to find a foolproof custom crown guard design, saw some ideas - like suva- but not sure about them.

Your table saw have a riving knife probably a crown guard fixed on top of it. To make a safe rebate cut, first you should make a proper shaped riving knife, shorter than just top of blade. Second a custom blade guard. Another option is to remove both riving knife and crown guard which is too dangerous. Handheld router could be slower and cumbersome than TS, but safer for rebate.

Custard do you expect quarter sawn and riftsawn boards also cups after being resawn ?

 

[custard]

Custard do you expect quarter sawn and riftsawn boards also cups after being resawn ?

You're right to point out that the cut of the timber has a bearing on its stability. However, the really big influence is the moisture difference between the very centre of the board and nearer out towards the face. Unless the board has an absolutely constant moisture level throughout its thickness the board is guaranteed to cup when re-sawn.

I was recently completing the cutting list for a dressing table in quarter sawn oak and was getting low on material. To make it all work I decided to get the 12mm drawer sides out by re-sawing a 30mm board. I knew it was taking a gamble, but the boards seemed thoroughly dried and it was absolutely bang on the quarter cut, so I thought it was worth a go.

Big mistake.

There was a moisture gradient inside the board after all; as soon as it came off the bandsaw I had the sorry experience of watching my beautiful quarter sawn drawer sides curl up like Shirley Temple's hair. They couldn't be salvaged and I eventually made the drawer sides out of some sycamore I had.

There are some components that you know you'll need thinner stuff for, cedar drawer bottoms, chestnut cabinet backs, drawer sides etc. I try and source these components as thinner boards in the first place, or I'll bite the bullet and plane down a thicker board equally from each face, even though it's galling to see all that lovely timber converted into shavings.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Custard, in your experience, if you've cut thinner stock (say 1/2" as you describe) from resawing thicker boards but then you put the component into a glue-up pretty much instantly ie before it starts cupping, have you found the turgor pressure causes splitting after it's in situ?

I've resawn 1/2" stock from kiln dried oak on 3 occasions for the panels in raised panel doors and they have survived. Once, I left them in the workshop overnight only to find bananas in the morning as you describe. After that I try to use them straight away or if not clamp them in a pile flat on my bench until I use them. Also, if the boards not wide enough for the panel, I'll edge glue the wider stock before resawing and that seems to stabilise it a bit. Smiles and frowns. I'm now worried that my brothers bathroom furniture is going to split!