Whats the deal with contractors saws?

[ByronBlack]

I was thinking about the Jet 'site' saw today after receiving some gumpf from axminster in the post. At first glance the spec seems great, sliding table, strong fence, powerful induction motor, but what is the downside? There must be some.

What's wrong with the galvanised worktop? Are we too hung up on Cast Iron, or is the galvanised steel really an issue?

Is the missing mitre-slot an issue? If I were to have a use for a sled, how would that be used with no mitre-slot, is there a practical and accurate way around that?

 

[Philly]

BB
Depends what you intend to use the saw for - site saws are pretty "rough and ready". Fine for ripping down ply and softwoods on site but not so good if you want a "Norm style-centre of your workshop" machine.
Once you have used a cast iron machine you'll never go back. DAMHIK :lol:
Philly

 

[ike]

but what is the downside? There must be some.

What's wrong with the galvanised worktop?

If you consider nothing less than a precision ground flat table will enable you to cut timber, then a galvanised table is no good. If however, like me for instance, who regards table sawing operation as 'roughly to size, allowing for jointing and thicknessing', then there is nothing wrong with it - nothing at all. I have the TKU and it does all I require EXCEPT... and this is a downside to the site saws. They lack in fence travel. I can rip out to 300mm and that's it, which is sometimes a pain, however I just rip freehand to a line if wider that that.

Are we too hung up on Cast Iron

Many here seem to be.

Is the missing mitre-slot an issue? If I were to have a use for a sled, how would that be used with no mitre-slot, is there a practical and accurate way around that?

IMO, no. You can make a sled to clamp to the sliding table fence. As accurate as you need it to be and very easy to use too.

Philly wrote:

site saws are pretty "rough and ready". Fine for ripping down ply and softwoods on site

And also fine for use in the workshop too, including hardwoods, laminates and enything else a saw can saw - with the right blade fitted :wink: .

but not so good if you want a "Norm style-centre of your workshop" machine

Exactly. But is that a shortcoming of a sitesaw, or the owner?

cheers,

Ike

 

[Another Dave]

I have the Charnwood site saw, with the optional sliding carriage.

It replaced, er ......... another site saw which put in great service every day for years and a Triton workcentre which annoyed because of lack of blade tilt!

It's not a cabinetmaker's saw and I wouldn't put an Incra fence or some other embellishment on it - for one thing it would cost more than the saw - but it certainly cuts wood - well!

The standard blade is OK for ripping, and I got a new Freud fine cut blade to suit on Ebay for half the retail price.

With a bit of tuning (even needed on most affordable cast saws, apparently, reading some threads on here) the sliding carriage is really worthwhile too, but could do with a longer rail to give more overhang at the front of the table. I see some other site saws actually have this feature.

Dave.

 

[ByronBlack]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Ike - I tend to agree with you on the point about jointing after the initial cut, this is how I work at the moment, I use the bandsaw usually or the festool, and then use hand-planes to creep up on the final size.

The only issue I can see with regards to the steel top is if it's not very flat, does that cause a problem when cross-cutting? I use a shooting board at the moment, but when I'm doing many small components this can be quite tiring, is the cross-cut finish good on a conractor saw?

Phil - I understand what you are saying about the CI saws, and they are tempting, but other than the Iron top, I can't understand how they are any more accurate or give any more of a better cut than a contractor? If both machines use the same blade (A freud for example) and they are cutting the same wood - would the results be the same? Or are there and I suspect there might be, issues that I'm not considering?

Ike - the fence travel issue, this could be a small problem for me as I'm looking at the saw to replace a panel cutting set up with a festool MFT, is there a way of removing the fence, and fitting an after-market fence in combination with a home-made extension table to increase the rip width?

 

[ike]

On the fence travel issue, personally, I wouldn't faff with any major modifications as you mention. I accept the saw has the limitation and work round it. If however, you are in the situation where you need to do a lot of repetive ripping requiring repeatable accuracy without 'fettling' for want of another description, I venture to say a site saw is not up to the mark. I wuld in that position, buy a heavier built sawbench. The Scheppach 2500 or better still the 4010 would be my choice (107mm depth cut), mainly because I like the spacesaver, fold down extension table design. Best of both spacewise.

A local plastics engineering firm have a 2500 (with ally table). It has given them sterling service for the last 13 years and still provides the accuracy and quality required of cutting sheet material. So don't get sucked to deeply into the "CI or not" debate - Scheppach were getting it right long before Chinese Pig Iron seduced everyone!. Must be a few bargains every year on Ebay.

Ike

 

[ByronBlack]

ike, thanks for the reply. The Sheppy is a little out of my league but a nice machine!

I wasn't quite thinking straight with regards to the rip capacity. I just had another look on the axminster site, and the Jet has a side extension that gives rip capacity up to 860mm which seems like wide enough for most applications.. so that really leaves only the question of how good the cross-cuts are..

On a similar note, does anyone know if the xcalibur 804 contractos saw is still available? I've not seen it on their website and I don't know of any other dealers..

 

[OllyK]

Am I missing something here. I appreciate that precision is something to strive for, but how much does wood move (expand and contract) in a normal environment? I'm sure it considerably more than the 1/000's of an inch I see quoted for some machinery.

 

[johnnyb]

depends on what you are willing to accept. if you are like me then machinery must do precisely what is required of it otherwise it can be frustrating to use. if i rip a peice of timber i expect it to be parallel and the cut to be carried out safely. the finish is only really secondary. a good saw just does it time after time after timeetc. if the fence or table is not flat or the safety features are rubbish or any of the other annoyances that occur with cheaper saws happen then you will not acheive that straightforward but actually rather elusive parallel rip or even more elusive square crosscut safely. this is fact.

 

[ByronBlack]

It's a misconception IMO to think that you can't be accurate with wood because it moves. Wood doesnt always move in every direction, if you cross-cut a piece of wood at 90 it's pretty much going to stay that way. It will expand and contract across it's width and might bow or cup, but it doesnt grow extra material and become thicker and nor does it change angle.

If you want a tight finish on a joint then it's important that your timber is accurate, hence the need for an accurate and most important in my view; repeatable method. Yes you can tweak cuts on shooting boards and the like, but this can become tedious on larger or wider stock and becomes plain annoying when you have many components in a single project, so it then becomes important to get as good a cut as possible from the first action, in this case is the table-saw.

 

[Philly]

Ike
Some fair points - if you want a saw to rough out work then a site saw would be perfect.
As for cast iron being just a selling point, I agree to a degree. many manufacturers of hobby machines have jumped on the bandwagon.
I started off with a £35 Makro table saw. Awful, scary machine. Bolted it to a sheet of ply to increase the table size, made my own fence. It worked but scared me to death. And not exactly accurate.
I then invested in a Record table saw. Ally table but big capacities. It was a dream come true. At first :lol: I could never get it as accurate as I would like and there was problems with the table warping when cutting larger pieces of timber. And the fence...... :roll:
Around this time I bought a Jet surface planer. Cast iron tables, cast iron fence. It was an eye opener! Smooth, accurate and inspiring.
Needless to say, I finally upgraded my table saw to a Woodford Unisaw clone, just like Norm's.
What is the advantage? Well for starters, the table doesn't warp, regardless of the size of timber you are cutting. The sheer mass of the saw absorbs any vibration, making for a very smooth cut. And when you look under the bonnet you find that every component is over engineered and massive.
Why is this a good thing? Because you get a saw that works perfectly - every time. And that instils confidence. You also see a huge improvement in the accuracy of your work.

I hope this goes some way to explaining where I am coming from. The tablesaw is an integral part of my workshop and the way I work. I use it every day. It isn't a "one thou shaving" kind of thing - It's more about the quality and ease of use. The Lie-Nielsen vs Record, Festool vs Black and Decker kind of thing.
And the best way to explain it is to try one out - then it becomes clear. If you are ever around my way you are welcome to come by for a play
Best regards
Philly

 

[mailee]

Well Byron, I have used a site saw for the past five years and longer. In fact I have used a B&Q sitesaw for the past five years but.....modified. I originally started out with an Elecktra Beckum site saw with the pressed steel top and it was just OK'ish. When I bought the B&Q Power Pro one it was on offer for £150 so you can tell what i got for my money. I stripped off the fence and the 'mitre guage' which sat on the side of it and made a new top out of MDF reinforced with a hardwood frame of a larger size. I also routed two mitre slots in it and made it into a fairly accurate machine. I did lose 18mm of cut from the site saw but this wasn't too much of a problem as it was a 12" blade and had a 3HP motor. I also made an accurate fence with sliding scale which locked pretty well in place. Not as accurate a a dedicated table saw but good enough. I have now bought a larger cast iron saw which I am looking forward to using and it has taken me a number of years to get to this stage. They are damn expensive but worth every penny for a woodshop. I still don't have the room for a sliding table and can't rip 8X4 sheets but it will help in time and effort reducing the smaller pieces once the larger sheet is cut down. It is a case of you pays yer money but in my opinion if you have the room a table saw is the heart of any woodshop. :wink:

 

[OLD]

With a CI saw you get consistent 90 deg. cuts full length so with a good blade the cuts could be glued and joined straight from the saw also the fence which is usually robust and free moving can be adjusted very fine to get a perfect fit they just make every thing more straight forward.

 

[devonwoody]

Byron,
I recently went over to a c.i. saw with mitre slots, and my cross cuts with an 60T blade are the best I have ever had, plus mitre cuts havent needed any trimming either.

Downside the cuts are costing a lot more.

However I posted details of a contractor type saw the other day on sale from Amazon usa at around £100 that includes dado availability and perhaps I might have been equally suited with that option if not having made the c.i. purchase.

 

[ike]

Well, there you are Byron. Both sides of the coin explained. So if the question was which is best, then the answer is both. It just depends on your circumstances, the amount of work you do with it, and of course how deep your pockets are.

I do see Phillys point though. It comes back to 'buy the best you can afford'.

cheers,

Ike