What (type - abrasive medium) are you using to finish tools?

[woodpig]

10 minutes in "diamond should only be used for sharpening carbide or ceramic".

http://youtu.be/liJKYgO_P3I

 

[ED65]

Initially I wasn't sold on oilstones but eventually I found a good fine one at a car boot sale...

"oil-stone" is no more, and no less, than "sharpening stone used with oil as a lubricant"

Well yes, but I meant stones specifically intended to be used with oil.

10 minutes in "diamond should only be used for sharpening carbide or ceramic".

Obviously this is a matter of opinion. But he then goes on to state something that isn't true in practice for the home user, otherwise diamond plates wouldn't last. And they do.

 

[D_W]

The assertion of diamond use for carbide only is an old machinists assertion, at least as far as I can recall. A lot of it has to do with cost, which has changed a LOT since the discussion first came about, and some of it has to do with the supposition of microfracturing that may occur on steels that can tolerate other abrasives. Microfracturing or at least some edge defect occurs on really hard steel or thin bevels, and it can be seen sharpening razors with silicon carbide and diamonds or very hard white steel japanese chisels with those two same things.

Anyway, diamonds are a lot cheaper now, cleaner to use than loose silicon carbide (which is what most machinists will end up recommending if you have to do much metal work by hand) and micro diamonds are readily available, and from what I've seen, they do not have the same microfracturing issues. They do make a toothy edge with a strange wire edge compared to older gentler stones, but that can be mitigated by continuing to decrease the size of the diamonds, and with micron or submicron diamonds, the harshness of an edge can only be felt on a straight razor (but it can definitely be felt there).

The results of the poll so far are interesting. Diamonds have a very strong showing.

 

[woodpig]

What Ben Dale the owner of Edge Pro said is that the diamonds are pulled from the substrate by steel blades. I've certainly found this to be the case with some of the more coarse diamond plates. The finer grades seem to be less affected but as I only use them infrequently I can't attest to the likely longevity of them. Ben suggests that diamond won't last as long as other abrasives in the hands of professionals using them on a frequent basis. He does sell them though for those that want them only suggesting they are better used on ceramic knives. As the owner of a company selling the product he clearly has much practical experience of the subject.

Diamond wheels used my machinists are somewhat different and have the diamonds embedded inside some kind of matrix.

CBN wheels are yet another product proving to be popular with some wood turners for HSS tools at the moment in spite of the fairly high price.

 

[D_W]

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/20 ... -break-in/

Here is some of that (disappearing diamonds) in pictures.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I clicked the wrong option. I use diamonds with paste to finish. So -1 paste and +1 diamond and paste. Green stuff on the back of full hide leather (4mm), 10k grit or so.

 

[knockknock]

Well I don't know which box to check. I use synthetic water stones followed by a strop with the green stick stuff, followed by a plain strop.

 

[JimB]

What category do Spyderco ceramic stones come under?

 

[D_W]

What category do Spyderco ceramic stones come under?

Synthetic waterstones. They can be used dry, with water, or with soapy water, so I'd figure that they're closest to synthetic waterstones (plus they're ceramic alumina of some sort like a lot of the resin bound waterstones - they just have a ceramic binder holding the ceramic abrasive).

 

[JimB]

What category do Spyderco ceramic stones come under?

Synthetic waterstones. They can be used dry, with water, or with soapy water, so I'd figure that they're closest to synthetic waterstones (plus they're ceramic alumina of some sort like a lot of the resin bound waterstones - they just have a ceramic binder holding the ceramic abrasive).

Thanks, I use them with soapy water.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi David

I turned you on to the CBN wheels, and at the time I also mentioned that I was using Spyderco Medium and Ultra Fine. These stones had come recommended by George Wilson. I do like them, and find it interesting that I can finish on the UF, which appears to be rated at about 4000 grit (no one really knows what they are - they seem to me to be about 10000 grit). By contrast, I would otherwise finish on a 13000 Sigma.

The important features for me is that they are very hard wearing and home any type of steel you can throw at them, from O1 to D2 and M4.

Have you tried the Spyderco stones? I know that you are hot on oilstones, but I would consider these to be the oilstone of waterstones. They are very hard (ceramic) and resist wear, may be used with the minimum of water (I generally use a spritz of soapy water to carry away swarf). And they are relatively cheap (mine are 2" x 8", but I side sharpen so the width is not an issue).

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[woodpig]

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/09/10/diamond-plate-break-in/

Here is some of that (disappearing diamonds) in pictures.

Interesting link, thanks.

I wondered why I got deep scratches from some plates, this explains why:

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/20 ... in-part-2/

 

[Racers]

Some cracking pictures, those over sized ones are much bigger!

Pete

 

[woodpig]

Yes, until those big ones get snapped off and worn down you're bound to get scratches.

 

[D_W]

Hi David

I turned you on to the CBN wheels, and at the time I also mentioned that I was using Spyderco Medium and Ultra Fine. These stones had come recommended by George Wilson. I do like them, and find it interesting that I can finish on the UF, which appears to be rated at about 4000 grit (no one really knows what they are - they seem to me to be about 10000 grit). By contrast, I would otherwise finish on a 13000 Sigma.

The important features for me is that they are very hard wearing and home any type of steel you can throw at them, from O1 to D2 and M4.

Have you tried the Spyderco stones? I know that you are hot on oilstones, but I would consider these to be the oilstone of waterstones. They are very hard (ceramic) and resist wear, may be used with the minimum of water (I generally use a spritz of soapy water to carry away swarf). And they are relatively cheap (mine are 2" x 8", but I side sharpen so the width is not an issue).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek, you sure did send me down the road of CBN, and that's been a worthwhile purchase over the pink 6" wheels, I have to admit - without exception. In the not very long run, it will be cheaper, which is something I wouldn't have expected.

I have spydercos, yes (the same two you do, it appears), I would have said exactly what you said, they're the oilstones of waterstones because the fine stone doesn't blast away a large microbevel - it massages a polish onto it. I would be using them if I weren't using oilstones right now, and I don't know that I necessarily have a preference of oilstones over spyderco, it's just what I've been using. The three things that I have that I would use long term are oilstones, spydercos or natural japanese stones. The rest of the stuff has gone to the wayside.

Oilstones cut the tough steels you mentioned very slowly, but grinding has to be done often to keep the bevel down to a tiny size, and a jasper has to be added to burnish off any difficult wire edges. I found that out with V11, which doesn't sharpen well on oilstones, that the edge is as good as anything else if the jasper is added at the end to thin the wire edge and then burnish it off. I'm sure the spyderco is a better idea for it.

(i prefer the 8x2 stones, too. I had the 3" wide UF and sold it to an SMC member and bought the cheaper 8x2 stone. It is difficult to work with 8x3 stones freehand if you're never going to flatten anything. )

The jasper has been one of the more interesting things I've ever played with. It's superb for knives that aren't finished that well because they're a bit soft, or because they have a tiny bevel, and it can step up the work from an oilstone on anything, as long as you only expect it to polish an edge. It's just another one of those things that David Barnett suggested that is right on the money about what he said. I wish he'd pop up again, I hope he's doing OK. (it's certainly the cheapest sharpening media I've ever gotten, too, four slices that ranged from 99 cents to 10 dollars).

 

[D_W]

Yes, until those big ones get snapped off and worn down you're bound to get scratches.

It's something that I've noticed on DMT oilstones used in a progression, that even if you have a relatively fine stone that is feeling as though it's almost worn out, there are still a couple of those tall ones that hold on after the others are gone. When you work a polish onto something, there's spiderwebbing all over the place left behind by those deep random cuts.

There are lots of those deep scratches at first, but unfortunately in my experience with DMTs, you still have a few that hold on indefinitely. It's a cosmetic problem more than anything, but an annoying one.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

I've pretty much migrated to Spyderco stones-medium, fine & ultrafine. Been using them for over a year now, but what is sealing the deal, is George Wilson's tip of giving them a spritz of water (I only use that on the ultrafine). I do have to add, it took multiple flattenings on a coarse DMT to get the stones to flat, but since there, the results have been more than satisfactory for me. I have no need to strop using Spyderco's, as I did with my oilstones.

 

[woodpig]

Are Ceramic stones harder than Japanese water stones?

 

[D_W]

Are Ceramic stones harder than Japanese water stones?

The spydercos are harder by a mile. They are the hardest stone I have ever seen, rivaled only by jasper (either one does not abrade very fast with a diamond plate).

the really hard japanese stones, like Gokumyos are hard, but not remotely close to as hard as the spydercos.

The difference is that there are a lot of japanese stones called "ceramics", but that is the abrasive particles. The binder is resin, like epoxy-ish stuff, or something else that's softer than the particles. In a spyderco, the binder and the abrasive are both ceramic, and on the fine ones, no pores. They are a bear to lap, like tony says, because of it.

As far as I know, they are offshoot of ceramics used in manufacturing processes, made by coors ceramics (which was part of the beer (if you'd call coors beer) company, but eventually went off independent).

Coors marketed the hones under their names (they show up in the razor community from time to time), but I guess found no market traction, which spyderco has because of the knife enthusiasts).

 

[BearTricks]

I use sandpaper up to about 1000 grit then an 'ice bear' waterstone from Axminster up to about 6000 grit, then autosol on an old leather belt to finish.

The waterstone needs flattening far too often, and it's messy. If I were buying again I'd probably go for diamonds but I have it now so it's getting used.

I do edge maintenance just with autosol on the strop.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk