What is the most chatoyant wood?

[D_W]

When you carve the top on a les paul, if I'm understanding what you mean by step bookmatch, you work your way through some of the lumber's thickness and the bookmatch is lost. Occasionally you'll see a really high end guitar where the match is still good enough that the average person isn't going to see mismatches at the seam through the depth (or lost height) due to carving.

That said, when you buy japanese guitars, they often put a veneer over a plain hard maple carved top, and the match looks pretty nice - the veneers are sawn type, but like an acoustic guitar back, they come from only a small bit of board depth so the match stays good.

I've bought pre matched halves but not used them yet, and spent a fair bit of time looking through regular lumber sellers who claim to have this or that. To find a 2" thick board 8" wide with uniform figure from top to bottom and all the way through the thickness is rare, and the regular suppliers who think they have instrument wood often are selling flatsawn, which is not typical in really high end guitars.

it's really hard to find great quartered uniform figure boards, though, and when I do, they're always more than it would just cost me to go to a canadian supplier that actually specializes in providing top sets.

Building with dead quartered plain wood is another option that's nice, though if the grain is very straight, the glue line will practically disappear and a perfectly clean quartered top on any solidbody guitar is unusual enough that it still looks nice.

 

[chatometry]

The little I can add to the discussion is that we saw low chatoyance on rosewoods, which means that such mismatch would hardly be visible.
By the way, if anybody never saw chatoyant Cocobolo or Kingwood, please see these ones:

On the other extreme there is Koa (the most chatoyant wood we found so far) for which matching would be hard indeed; googling "Koa guitar back" shows a lot of mismatched backs.
(still such an amazing wood! @profchris how can anybody reject a piece of Koa?!?!?!)

 

[profchris]

(still such an amazing wood! @profchris how can anybody reject a piece of Koa?!?!?!)

The guy who rejected it sells ukuleles for 4 figure sums (pounds, euros, USD). I guess the knot and resulting mismatch is why I got lucky.

in my (limited) experience, chatoyance is reflection from end grain. Spruce is usually dull as it's very straight grain, so chatoyance there is mainly runout (the exceptions, silking and bearclaw, command a premium). Koa grain runs wild, runout is always a guesstimate and most boards have 25%+ end grain showing!

Thinking about it, I realise I've not seen much chatoyance in rosewood. Maybe the cut pores in the grain don't reflect much? I suspect Ash doesn't either - have you tested that?

 

[chatometry]

The guy who rejected it sells ukuleles for 4 figure sums (pounds, euros, USD). I guess the knot and resulting mismatch is why I got lucky.

in my (limited) experience, chatoyance is reflection from end grain. Spruce is usually dull as it's very straight grain, so chatoyance there is mainly runout (the exceptions, silking and bearclaw, command a premium). Koa grain runs wild, runout is always a guesstimate and most boards have 25%+ end grain showing!

Thinking about it, I realise I've not seen much chatoyance in rosewood. Maybe the cut pores in the grain don't reflect much? I suspect Ash doesn't either - have you tested that?

What do you mean by "runout"?
Anyway, I want to show you one example:

This is spanish cedar, perfectly straight grained, 1500-grit and no finish. Still you can clearly see how it shifts its color as the light moves.

So the way the surface shifts in color, based on light direction and fiber direction, is a microscopic property of the material, like density.
When this property occurs on a straight grained piece, the whole surface shifts color but it is often hard to notice. When there is figure such as curl, ribbon stripe, etc, the effect is much more visible because there are dark and bright areas close together due to fiber distortion. Koa is often a combination of fiber distortion AND high chatoyance, thus the amazing look. This example is from a straight-grained Koa piece where you only see the microscopic property (chatoyance), without fiber distortion:

As for Ash we tested samples from 14 different logs. The average chatoyance is quite low (PZC 12.9), but in some cases it can be visibly chatoyant such as this one (PZC 16.8):

More data about European Ash here: Ash, European – PZC Chatometry

Paolo

 

[chatometry]

[edit: posted by mistake]

 

[chatometry]

I've noticed it in Sycamore . It has a peculiar sheen which distinguishes it from Maple but you have to look closely.

What do you mean by "Sycamore"? Acer Pseudopoatanus?

 

[Droogs]

For UK wood bashers we call Acer pseudoplatanus - Sycamore and all the rest Maple ( hard, soft, leopardwood etc) apart from London plane (which can also be called lacewood depending on how it is sawn.)

 

[chatometry]

Thank you @Droogs
What other species of maple do you normally use? Acer Campestre?
Paolo

 

[profchris]

Runout is where the grain isn't perfectly parallel along the length of the board. If not, when the board face is planed or sanded this exposes some end grain, angled in the same direction as the runout. Runout is in opposite directions on a bookmatched piece, so the end grain points in different directions and thus reflects light differently.

Frank Ford has an excellent explanation here: Runout and vertical grain

Scroll down to the pictures of him splitting boards along the grain, and then note the chatoyance changes in the two pictures of the guitar top, showing how runout produces the difference in appearance.

 

[Droogs]

Personaly, I use quillted, spalted, flame, crotch and birds eye as these are varieties that I can get either as a pre-cut leaf or in chunks I can hand saw into leaves myself. However they are expensive and can be hit or miss as to availibility.

 

[chatometry]

Runout is where the grain isn't perfectly parallel along the length of the board. If not, when the board face is planed or sanded this exposes some end grain, angled in the same direction as the runout. Runout is in opposite directions on a bookmatched piece, so the end grain points in different directions and thus reflects light differently.

Frank Ford has an excellent explanation here: Runout and vertical grain

Scroll down to the pictures of him splitting boards along the grain, and then note the chatoyance changes in the two pictures of the guitar top, showing how runout produces the difference in appearance.

Very interesting, thank you.

I would guess that similar issues arise in paneling... Do you know what typical finishes are employed on veneered panels?

 

[chatometry]

Personaly, I use quillted, spalted, flame, crotch and birds eye as these are varieties that I can get either as a pre-cut leaf or in chunks I can hand saw into leaves myself. However they are expensive and can be hit or miss as to availibility.

Thank you. What is your typical use? (what is a "leaf"?)
I guess chatoyance is good for your use, otherwise you wouldn't look for such figures, isn't it?
We are running finishing tests on flame maple and also plan to run dying tests to understand how to maximize chatoyance.

 

[Droogs]

A leaf is each slice taken from a log when the intended purpose of the removed piece is to be used as a veneer and typically ranges in modern process between 0.6 - 1.5mm but can be upto 5 - 6mm thick when hand sawn such as was the common practice in the 17/18/19 00's cabinet making. When a full log has been sliced up by whatever method - rotary/slice/saw and the sequential layers are piled in one stack, this is called a flitch.
Traditionally (before heavy industrialisation) veneers were bought in flitches of up to 144 sequentially sliced leaves on order to maximise the uniformity of grain pattern and chatoyance. If large pieces of furniture were being covered an ebenieste would get as wide and long a flitch as possible to give a panel as even an appearance re chatoyance as they could. Some stunning examples of this can be found in some of the full size wall and walk in "Schrank" wardrobes in the Imperial Austian Furniture museum in Vienna (Hofmobiliendepot). In general though due to chatoyance the practice of just mirror bookmarking veneers came to be replaced by the various geometric and slip type matches as used on so many styles of cabinetry in the mid 18th C onwards into the deco age where industrial chemical finishes started to mitigate its effects and the vagries of scale production and profit meant less attention was given to it. In France unlike a cabinet makers apprenticeship which was in general 5 years an ebenieste would take 7 - 9 years due to the need to learn about the characteristics of veneers in regard to movement and chatoyance and how different finishes would affect the finished pieces look. Interestingly it appears up until the renaissance, from studies I did many years ago that those ebenieste (marquetarians) who were also versed in the use of the chevalet du marquetrie for creating the image panels were not allowed to leave the confines of the walls of Paris for 12 years after their apprenticeship and I was once told 20 years inside the borders of France in order to keep the knowledge of how to use veneers at such a high level secret and in-house to French woodworkers. Which would explain the use of a board with a crows mouth and a fret saw being the common method in much of Europe and especially England for working veneers while at the same time the French were using the donkey and producing far superior work.

as an aside I have often found that burnishing with a high surface polished metal rod can increase the level of chatoyance on duller timbers.

 

[TRITON]

Here's one of my ukuleles. You can see I've got a good bookmatch, but the knot on the left has caused swirly grain on the right, which will diverge more if i thin it further.

View attachment 140813

And, with finish, the runout becomes apparent, making the lower right part look darker than the lower left, and also changing the appearance of the horizontal figuring lines on each half.

View attachment 140812

Fortunately all this moves around if you move the instrument, so it looks even more interesting, rather than mismatched.

A high end builder had rejected this wood, so I got to use it. Figured koa is rare, so I wasn't going to waste it!

Yeah, Ripple always looks amazing.
Box i made for my favourite bike mechanic some years ago from a council cut tree in the shared garden*

*It was one of the sections. the other is still standing and i've got my eye on it. It's mostly dead, and if the council come back i'll be offering the arborists a fair price if they give me the main sections.

 

[chatometry]

A leaf is each slice taken from a log when the intended purpose of the removed piece is to be used as a veneer and typically ranges in modern process between 0.6 - 1.5mm but can be upto 5 - 6mm thick when hand sawn such as was the common practice in the 17/18/19 00's cabinet making. When a full log has been sliced up by whatever method - rotary/slice/saw and the sequential layers are piled in one stack, this is called a flitch.
Traditionally (before heavy industrialisation) veneers were bought in flitches of up to 144 sequentially sliced leaves on order to maximise the uniformity of grain pattern and chatoyance. If large pieces of furniture were being covered an ebenieste would get as wide and long a flitch as possible to give a panel as even an appearance re chatoyance as they could. Some stunning examples of this can be found in some of the full size wall and walk in "Schrank" wardrobes in the Imperial Austian Furniture museum in Vienna (Hofmobiliendepot). In general though due to chatoyance the practice of just mirror bookmarking veneers came to be replaced by the various geometric and slip type matches as used on so many styles of cabinetry in the mid 18th C onwards into the deco age where industrial chemical finishes started to mitigate its effects and the vagries of scale production and profit meant less attention was given to it. In France unlike a cabinet makers apprenticeship which was in general 5 years an ebenieste would take 7 - 9 years due to the need to learn about the characteristics of veneers in regard to movement and chatoyance and how different finishes would affect the finished pieces look. Interestingly it appears up until the renaissance, from studies I did many years ago that those ebenieste (marquetarians) who were also versed in the use of the chevalet du marquetrie for creating the image panels were not allowed to leave the confines of the walls of Paris for 12 years after their apprenticeship and I was once told 20 years inside the borders of France in order to keep the knowledge of how to use veneers at such a high level secret and in-house to French woodworkers. Which would explain the use of a board with a crows mouth and a fret saw being the common method in much of Europe and especially England for working veneers while at the same time the French were using the donkey and producing far superior work.

as an aside I have often found that burnishing with a high surface polished metal rod can increase the level of chatoyance on duller timbers.

Very very interesting! I knew nothing about all this history. Very interesting indeed. Thank you.

What would the effect of burnishing be? Would it act as an ultra-fine sanding?

 

[Sgian Dubh]

The following is relevant to this discussion and reinforces some of the points already made by others. As has already been established in this thread chatoyant comes from the French and means to shimmer, to describe iridescence, or a changeable lustre; woodworkers commonly use the term ‘chatoyance’ to describes the different appearance of a polished piece of wood when viewed from different angles.

Anyway, below are photographs of the same ‘wavy’ grained cherry board rotated through 180º between shots with the camera in approximately the same position to take the shots that illustrate ‘chatoyance’. Follow the direction of the diagonal stripe indicated by the two red arrows. It’s the same grain feature but notice how, in the image with the arrow pointing left (left image on my monitor), the curl in the grain shows as a dark line that diverges around a patch of light coloured wood near the edge. In the image where the arrow points to the right (right image on my monitor the diagonal stripe is light coloured and surrounds a dark island. As you look at the images closely you’ll notice more dark and light reversals of the same patches of wood. Slainte.

 

[chatometry]

The following is relevant to this discussion and reinforces some of the points already made by others. As has already been established in this thread chatoyant comes from the French and means to shimmer, to describe iridescence, or a changeable lustre; woodworkers commonly use the term ‘chatoyance’ to describes the different appearance of a polished piece of wood when viewed from different angles.

Anyway, below are photographs of the same ‘wavy’ grained cherry board rotated through 180º between shots with the camera in approximately the same position to take the shots that illustrate ‘chatoyance’. Follow the direction of the diagonal stripe indicated by the two red arrows. It’s the same grain feature but notice how, in the upper image, the curl in the grain shows as a dark line that diverges around a patch of light coloured wood near the edge. In the lower photo the diagonal stripe is light coloured and surrounds a dark island. As you look at the images closely you’ll notice more dark and light reversals of the same patches of wood. Slainte.

View attachment 140903 View attachment 140904View attachment 140903View attachment 140904​

Exactly. And if you cut a tiny 1/8" by 1/8" square out of that surface, it wouldn't be "wavy" but it would still be "chatoyant".
Nice piece!
Paolo

 

[raffo]

I heard this from many people
What is your solution?
Matching the grain direction? Choosing a finish that inhibits chatoyance? Choosing a low-chatoyance wood?
Paolo

Stain will kill chatoyance and leave you with a dull surface if that's what you want.

 

[raffo]

I consider chatoyance a plus if I find it a piece of lumber. I'm surprised some here consider it a nuisance. Real mahogany has some of the most beautiful chatoyance you will ever find. Here is a piece by David Marks that he made in his TV show several years ago.

This old piece my wife and I found at an antique store is waiting for a restoration. The bookmatched walnut veneer is just waiting to come back to life.

When mahogany was available the effect of the figure was not a minor part of the appearance of a high end piece.
(Page 36 of Mahogany Book, The mahogany book.)

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Exactly. And if you cut a tiny 1/8" by 1/8" square out of that surface, it wouldn't be "wavy" but it would still be "chatoyant".
Nice piece!
Paolo

You wouldn't happen to be the same person as the Paolo Pisani at this link, would you?

Going back to your original question as in the thread title, I really can't tell you which wood species exhibits the greatest chatoyancy. All I know is that chatoyance can range from mild to flamboyant within different examples of the same species all depending upon the the cut of the board or veneer along with rarer growth patterns, such as ripple, bird's eye, interlocked grain, quilted, curly, and so on.

A quite common result of chatoyance, or simply how wood reflects or refracts light, is to observe the framing of a frame and panel construction such as a polished door ready for installation in its cabinet. Laid flat on a bench and observed with the rails parallel to the viewer, the stiles may appear pale compared to the rails. Turn the door through 90º so that the stiles are parallel to the viewer, and they now appear dark compared to the paler appearance of the rails.

Such differences in appearance are fairly common in doors when they are mounted, of course, but at that point it's generally either impossible or difficult to rotate an installed door through 90º to witness the reversal of the pale and darker appearance. This pale/dark appearance in an installed door can be reduced or eliminated if desired (or needed) through the judicious use of stains and/or dyes, and/or glazes, plus polish. Similar polisher's tricks can also be applied to things like book matched, repetitive starburst and alternatively patterned veneered panels. I must admit that my polishing skills, although quite good, aren't really specialised enough for that level of work. Slainte.