What’s this planes task?

[AdrianUK]

What’s this little planes use

6” in length, the base is stepped on each side.

The 1.5” cutter sits perpendicular, so it scrapes rather than cuts, & overhangs the sides ever so slightly so I thought was there ever such a thing as a rebate scraper or even a need, but am probably way off.

 

[D_W]

It's a "T" rabbet coachmaker's plane. Could be flat, or could have a compass sole in the tyzack catalog listing. Someone turned the iron around, but it should be bevel down like a plane and not set up like a scraper.

 

[IWW]

....... The 1.5” cutter sits perpendicular, so it scrapes rather than cuts,...

????
Adrian, unless the pictures you posted have turned upside down or something crossing the equator, that looks like a pretty standard inclination of the bed. I wouldn't take too much notice of the blade, it's so worn I would not know which way to put it, but a new blade with a standard sharpening bevel should sit in it like a normal cutting blade, methinks. You have the option of flipping the blade in just about any single-iron plane to get a scraper of sorts.

As to the purpose of your plane, I have no idea other than it looks like it's intended to plane rebates in situations where a bit of stand-off from whatever is above the shoulder being planed to is desirable. Someone posted a similar plane on the Ubeaut forum last year, which provoked a good discussion, but no clear conclusions.

My first thought was something a coachmaker or patternmaker might use, but one of the respondents to the discussion is a retired patternmaker with wide experience & it was not familiar to him. I'd make a small wager it's a coachmaker's weapon - they had all sorts of rebate planes to handle all sorts of complex rebates, and the fact that planes like yours came in both straight & curved-sole versions reinforces that notion. I guess the trade has never become totally extinct, but there would be so few practioners left that it's unlikely one reads posts like this & will give us an opinion from a position of firm knowledge, but maybe one of our old-tool-savvy members will come up with a good answer for you...

Cheers,
Ian

 

[AdrianUK]

It's a "T" rabbet coachmaker's plane. Could be flat, or could have a compass sole in the tyzack catalog listing. Someone turned the iron around, but it should be bevel down like a plane and not set up like a scraper.

Thx DW, that’s not a plane I’ve heard of before, I’ll not forget it now but I doubt if I’ll ever see another !

 

[AdrianUK]

????
Adrian, unless the pictures you posted have turned upside down or something crossing the equator, that looks like a pretty standard inclination of the bed. I wouldn't take too much notice of the blade, it's so worn I would not know which way to put it, but a new blade with a standard sharpening bevel should sit in it like a normal cutting blade, methinks. You have the option of flipping the blade in just about any single-iron plane to get a scraper of sorts.

As to the purpose of your plane, I have no idea other than it looks like it's intended to plane rebates in situations where a bit of stand-off from whatever is above the shoulder being planed to is desirable. Someone posted a similar plane on the Ubeaut forum last year, which provoked a good discussion, but no clear conclusions.

My first thought was something a coachmaker or patternmaker might use, but one of the respondents to the discussion is a retired patternmaker with wide experience & it was not familiar to him. I'd make a small wager it's a coachmaker's weapon - they had all sorts of rebate planes to handle all sorts of complex rebates, and the fact that planes like yours came in both straight & curved-sole versions reinforces that notion. I guess the trade has never become totally extinct, but there would be so few practioners left that it's unlikely one reads posts like this & will give us an opinion from a position of firm knowledge, but maybe one of our old-tool-savvy members will come up with a good answer for you...

Cheers,
Ian

Thx Ian, some interesting views in that thread. The wedge was stuck fast, am pretty sure that’s how the cutter sat, but, equally I may have popped it back wrong.

 

[D_W]

Thx DW, that’s not a plane I’ve heard of before, I’ll not forget it now but I doubt if I’ll ever see another !

I've seen a lot of coachmaker's planes - some are T style like that, and some are not (just straight sided). As to where they were used in coaches, no clue. Of all of the hobby things we've seen people build, I haven't seen an amateur coach maker!

The amish coaches here do have some wooden parts and are nicely made, but not to the level that older high end coaches were made (and the amish generally use power tools here - just with hydraulic or pneumatic motors instead of electrical).

 

[IWW]

Yep, when you have the right name, Google finds things very easily, doesn't it?! Here's the relevant page from the 1908 Tyzack catalogue:


There must've been a few coachmakers still making coaches for horses in 1908, but their time was getting perilously close! The trade continued for another 30-something years making car bodies, and many more years making railway carriages, but neither was quite as refined as the high-end coaches made for the well-to-do.
Cheers,
Ian

 

[Adam W.]

I guess you should put it to use and see how it works, then try and think like a carriage maker and find its purpose, which could be: Used on its side for widening shallow rebates, but that's a guess. There's loads of historic stuff like this, where the method or purpose has been lost and academics come up with loads of old baloney about it.

My next task, once the vault is done, is to research making the 3/4 hollow seen on 14th century moulded beams. It's a deceptively simple moulding, until you start to try and work out how it's done on a 20' long curved beam.

Not a very good drawing, but it gives you an idea of what it is and no one seems to be able to figure it out .

Oh, I forgot ! To make your plane work, you need to flip the iron over.

 

[Neilyj999]

What’s this little planes use

6” in length, the base is stepped on each side.

The 1.5” cutter sits perpendicular, so it scrapes rather than cuts, & overhangs the sides ever so slightly so I thought was there ever such a thing as a rebate scraper or even a need, but am probably way off.

View attachment 129729View attachment 129730View attachment 129731View attachment 129732View attachment 129733

Hi there,

I have a similar plane to yours.

 

[Fergie 307]

I guess you should put it to use and see how it works, then try and think like a carriage maker and find its purpose, which could be: Used on its side for widening shallow rebates, but that's a guess. There's loads of historic stuff like this, where the method or purpose has been lost and academics come up with loads of old baloney about it.

My next task, once the vault is done, is to research making the 3/4 hollow seen on 14th century moulded beams. It's a deceptively simple moulding, until you start to try and work out how it's done on a 20' long curved beam.

Not a very good drawing, but it gives you an idea of what it is and no one seems to be able to figure it out .

View attachment 129759


Oh, I forgot ! To make your plane work, you need to flip the iron over.

That is certainly an interesting one. My thinking only goes as far as making a rectangular rebate and then somehow taking the sides out with some kind of curved tool. But as you say to do it on a long curved beam would be quite something. Reminds me of seeing a film of a chap making a blowpipe. If I had ever thought about it I suppose I would have assumed they used something that already had a hole in the middle, like bamboo, but without the joints. But no. The guy had a sort of scaffold arrangement so he could hold the thing upright, and then sat on top and drilled the hole down the middle with essentially a series of ever longer sticks with a blade on the end, and rolling them between his hands. How you would keep the hole in the middle goodness knows, incredible!

 

[D_W]

Yep, when you have the right name, Google finds things very easily, doesn't it?! Here's the relevant page from the 1908 Tyzack catalogue:

View attachment 129758
There must've been a few coachmakers still making coaches for horses in 1908, but their time was getting perilously close! The trade continued for another 30-something years making car bodies, and many more years making railway carriages, but neither was quite as refined as the high-end coaches made for the well-to-do.
Cheers,
Ian

I could tell it was a coachman's plane, but google helped me find that the style is "T". Cooper and coachman's planes are all over the place, even in the states, and probably a tempting thing to buy. I can't say for sure I don't have a coachman's plane or two, but it's not something I've ever used.

In the states and in England, at least for the early part of the auto and truck era, coach work was still done on the cab or passenger compartment (only phased out when cheaper cars became acceptable for the well-to-do). I wouldn't be surprised if it lasted longer and may still be in business (albeit probably not with much hand planing) for the high end funeral industry.

 

[Devmeister]

Interesting plane. Yup a coachman s plane.

my buddy finished restoration of a 1920s to maybe mid 1930s one ton flat bed Chevy truck. Totally cool truck! You expect the prohibition gangsters to hop out with their delivery of illegal hootch!

Truck has a six cylinder in-line engine. Cab is completely wood made from oak. Bed is wood and metal. The dog house over the engine is sheet metal.

The last major coach maker in the states was Fischer. They came up with a style of body that was sheet metal over a wood frame. A type of sand which construction. This would be known as a Fischer body.

Generdl motors bought them and ultimately they updated to making steel bodies. Would go onto be known as GMs Fischer Body Works. There was a small emblem with a vintage horse carriage on it. The lettering said Body By Fischer. Even on cars like the 1968 camero and firebirds.

I worked as a volunteer mechanic for the Stanley muesuem for a couple of years. Worked on a 1909 model R coffin nose steam car.

The body was entirely wood with the dog house covering the boiler made of sheet metal. The main rails were made of ash with the remainder being made of “ply”. I use the term ply loosely here as the curved sections of the body were laminated out of three layers of solid wood laid over a frame. The woodwork was virtually perfect! When Stanley went to the condenser style, they also switched to a Fischer style body. These were heavier and not as peppy as the older coffin nose cars.

Here is a link to a Stanley model K. The K as nd gentleman’s speedy roadster were my favorites

 

[AdrianUK]

I guess you should put it to use and see how it works, then try and think like a carriage maker and find its purpose, which could be: Used on its side for widening shallow rebates, but that's a guess. There's loads of historic stuff like this, where the method or purpose has been lost and academics come up with loads of old baloney about it.

My next task, once the vault is done, is to research making the 3/4 hollow seen on 14th century moulded beams. It's a deceptively simple moulding, until you start to try and work out how it's done on a 20' long curved beam.

Not a very good drawing, but it gives you an idea of what it is and no one seems to be able to figure it out .

View attachment 129759


Oh, I forgot ! To make your plane work, you need to flip the iron over.

Thx Adam, I think your view is correct, it would have been designed for a task that it’s easy to over think, just because it’s redundant in our world. That it’s in the Tyzack catalogue would suggest that at some point it’s task was common. It’s size also suggests it was to be used on smaller work pieces, my assumption at least.

 

[AdrianUK]

Hi there,

I have a similar plane to yours.

Hi Neily, thats interesting, looks like are screw holes on the side?

 

[Adam W.]

Thx Adam, I think your view is correct, it would have been designed for a task that it’s easy to over think, just because it’s redundant in our world. That it’s in the Tyzack catalogue would suggest that at some point it’s task was common. It’s size also suggests it was to be used on smaller work pieces, my assumption at least.

Perhaps it's worth looking at the wear pattern on yours (both on the sole and the body of the plane) and comparing it to other well used examples. It might give enough information to make an informed guess on how it was used.

 

[Adam W.]

A brief look at another one for sale shows a distinct wear pattern on the sole.

 

[Adam W.]

And then a look in the Marples catalogue shows it sitting next to a coach door smoother no. 2993, and I wonder if the two rebates are the same size?

 

[IWW]

One of the bits of info dug out in the thread on these planes on the Aussie forum is from "The Wooden Plane" By John M . Whelan which gives about the closest thing to a description of how these T-rabbets were used. Briefly, he says "coachmakers had to trim the side and bottom of rebates in final fitting . They had limited space in which to work. One of his tools was the T Rebate in which the sole was extended beyond the stock. This offered a clearer view of the work and provided a bit more finger room . It also permitted paring either side of a groove by placing the tool sideways...."

The wear marks on the sole of the plane above sure look like it spent a lot of time trimming rebates of a fixed depth or width (depending which way it was held).....

And btw, Tyzack was still offering them for sale in their 1930 catalogue:



Cheers,
Ian

 

[Ozi]

I guess you should put it to use and see how it works, then try and think like a carriage maker and find its purpose, which could be: Used on its side for widening shallow rebates, but that's a guess. There's loads of historic stuff like this, where the method or purpose has been lost and academics come up with loads of old baloney about it.

My next task, once the vault is done, is to research making the 3/4 hollow seen on 14th century moulded beams. It's a deceptively simple moulding, until you start to try and work out how it's done on a 20' long curved beam.

Not a very good drawing, but it gives you an idea of what it is and no one seems to be able to figure it out .

View attachment 129759


Oh, I forgot ! To make your plane work, you need to flip the iron over.

Is the radius of curvature constant? If the answer is yes but it's a 120 foot radius then I'm still stumped. Obviously no idea how they did it, if I had to try I would lay the beam on it's side and fix it and a center point to the floor and cut with some sort of trammel arrangement. That would leave the two grooves with flat sides but the bottom rounded. Next would be a tool some what between a plain and a roach with several nearly half round blades, the body long enough to follow the established curve. I shall pretend I have the necessay skills. Begs the question why, I think I have seen similar made by stone masons with the internal radius larger than I imagine this part to be were they copying a theme established else where in the building

 

[Neilyj999]

Hi Neily, thats interesting, looks like are screw holes on the side?

Hi there,

It looks like there has been a split in the plane body at some point in the past. The holes are old screw holes that appear to have held wooden or metal plates for support.