Wasted Steel

[bridger]

Under magnification a lot of edges look like they couldn't cut overcooked pasta.

I'd even go so far as to say that for some kinds of cutting a slightly ragged edge performs better than a polished one. thus a kitchen knife which gets the sharpening steel applied regularly will do the job of cutting foodstuffs well but wouldn't last a moment cutting wood. most things a kitchen knife cuts could be described as squishy bundles of wet fibers saturated with sugars and fats. try planing that!

 

[Racers]

I have a cheese plane..

Pete

 

[Trafalgar]

My microscope was relatively expensive for an USB model, but it is still very difficult to draw any conclusions from the pictures.

I also have a cheap usb microscope. While I am not declaring that it makes me an expert at anything, and certainly not a metallurgist, it has helped me quite a bit. I'd say it did bump my sharpening up a grade to look at my edges at that magnification.

For instance, this straight razor looks terrible, but shaved pretty well as pictured:

That edge looks fine to me. I'm not surprised at all you got a good shave from it.

The common housefly looks beastly under magnification. Don't lose perspective, as so many seem prone to do.

 

[Corneel]

The advantage of using fast media like waterstones and sandpaper is that the process simply gets done and done fast. Why the navel-gazing? This is the chief advantage of these products - one can start at a finer grit and still process a dull edge very rapidly. Call it what you want, we're just removing bluntness. I suppose it would be lovely not to waste an angstrom of steel but obviously a fool's errand in the end. Look, feel, do what you need to do but just remove the steel necessary.

Because of their ability to remove material rapidly, if anything, fast media totally obviate the need for back beveling and all that hoo-hah.

Think about it like this -- if you owned a big kick-a$$ 20"++ wide 3 phase umpteen horsepower planer then a scrub plane wouldn't even rise to the level of quaintness. You don't need it. So goes the back bevel to the extent it's being recommended to remove bluntness. For Pete's sake put the petunias and Shakespeare's sonnets aside and just blow past 'the wear' with the fast media you already own. Oilstone users can just drop back to a medium stone if the edge has really gone off. No big deal, just remove more steel. Let your eye, your thumbnail, sense of timing and experience, hair on your arm, whatever, be your guide.

We're removing what has to be removed. All this other stuff is like becoming fascinated and infatuated with the off-cut from a workpiece instead of the workpiece itself. You removed wood because it was not needed. You're doing the same thing with blunt steel. It's like planing a board to width and all of a sudden becoming perplexed about how to take off the last 64th of an inch and thinking you need to conjure up some new scheme to remove it. Keep on planing. Keep on honing. Until you get where you need to be. I can't possibly imagine anything simpler or more basic.

And yes, if you really push an edge you'll have to remove more steel to make it sharp again and it this might require and additional measure of patience. I'm going to stand by my mailbox awaiting a nomination for the Nobel Prize in physics.

Well, navel gazing is what these forums are all about isn't it :mrgreen:

I completely agree with your post above. The discussion in the last two pages was about what needs to be removed exactly. The wear on the face side of a bevel up plane can be quite long and my point was that it doesn't need to be removed all the time. When you have raised a good burr on a 1000 waterstone or an India stone, then you are beyond the rounding of the very edge, but not neccessarily beyond all the wear on the face side. In my opinion that is good enough. And mr. Breach seems to hold the same opinion.

 

[Trafalgar]

Remove enough steel to leave no doubt. The alternative is pointless.

 

[bridger]

I have a cheese plane..

Pete

Touche.....

 

[Trafalgar]

Oh dear surely you wouldn't dare use that cheese plane without fettling it. The angle looks stock from the factory and clearly the face isn't nearly flat and polished enough to take half-thou shavings from sharp cheddar.

I'm looking at property in Vermont to set up making these as a boutique endeavor. Initial pricing studies indicate these will run about $250 US. Thoughts?

 

[JimB]

Oh dear surely you wouldn't dare use that cheese plane without fettling it. The angle looks stock from the factory and clearly the face isn't nearly flat and polished enough to take half-thou shavings from sharp cheddar.

I'm looking at property in Vermont to set up making these as a boutique endeavor. Initial pricing studies indicate these will run about $250 US. Thoughts?

Surely someone is working as we speak to make a suitably 'grained' cheese to get the best out such a tool.

 

[Trafalgar]

Probably the Japanese to be used at a cheese planing competition.

 

[Jacob]

The usual hilarious degree over over-thinking going on in this thread!
If you free-hand hone just enough to get a burr right across the full width of the blade (it's easy to miss a bit in the middle where there tends to be most wear) you are removing the least amount of metal for a sharp edge.
If you also dip and generate a slightly rounded bevel you defer the need for grinding.
If a bevel doesn't come up quickly a bit of a face bevel speeds this up - most people do this sub-conciously anyway every time they "flatten" the face - by putting more pressure towards the edge and even by lifting the blade a touch (the ruler trick without a ruler). The alternative; to attempt to literally flatten the whole face every time you sharpen, would be madness.
For many people - over-zealous grinding, especially hollow on a small 6" wheel, probably wastes most metal and most risks over-heating. Flat is better (belt sander etc) - or a large diameter wet wheel.
Keep it simple! A little and often.

It works for me - I've been doing a lot of hand planing recently and would simply not have time for fashionable but lengthier sharpening processes - least of all with fashionable thick blades. Exception here - I have been using a 26" woody with a trad thick blade - but just for straightening the arris on long timbers, which gives a reference for flattening the edge (after having flattened the face). A no. 8 would be better but I haven't got one.

 

[bridger]

I do give the flat side a wipe or two at least on a fine stone each time I sharpen, and I do concentrate on near the edge. i don't do the ruler trick or otherwise deliberately lift the handle or back bevel. Yes it does eventually result in a belly, which is no problem for most kinds of chisel work, and even a bit of a help for some. When it gets too much I'll go ahead and work it back to flat. There are a few chisels that do demand an accurate flat back, and they get different care.

For found vintage chisels with deep bellies or pitting that must be removed I have found a process to quickly return them to shape involving an angle head die grinder with a small abrasive disk, an extra coarse and a 600 grit dmt plate and a 1000 grit king red brick.

 

[Jacob]

..... There are a few chisels that do demand an accurate flat back,

Er - when, where, why, what?
Carvers use and depend chisels much more than woodworkers like most of us. They don't seem the slightest bit bothered about bevels on both sides, flatness etc - and confine polishing just to the bevel itself.

For found vintage chisels with deep bellies or pitting that must be removed I have found a process to quickly return them to shape involving an angle head die grinder with a small abrasive disk, an extra coarse and a 600 grit dmt plate and a 1000 grit king red brick.

I'd just leave them alone and use them "as is" or use another one. They are dirt cheap why oeuf about? All this flattening and polishing is a complete waste of time.
All old plane blades and chisels I see seem to be slightly convex in the length due to the face flattening we're talking about - but nothing ever which could deserve the term "bellied" .

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Why did you feel the need to show us your photo?

 

[MIGNAL]

That's wasted food not wasted steel.

 

[Jacob]

It's useful as a bench hold-down.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

While we're on cheese planes - my friend's wife, a very well educated lady, believed for several years that a small, curved Surform plane was a purpose made Parmesan grater.

 

[bugbear]

While we're on cheese planes - my friend's wife, a very well educated lady, believed for several years that a small, curved Surform plane was a purpose made Parmesan grater.

You know about Microplane, right?

BugBear

 

[bridger]

..... There are a few chisels that do demand an accurate flat back,

Er - when, where, why, what?
Carvers use and depend chisels much more than woodworkers like most of us. They don't seem the slightest bit bothered about bevels on both sides, flatness etc - and confine polishing just to the bevel itself.

For found vintage chisels with deep bellies or pitting that must be removed I have found a process to quickly return them to shape involving an angle head die grinder with a small abrasive disk, an extra coarse and a 600 grit dmt plate and a 1000 grit king red brick.

I have a short wide cranked handle chisel that I use for close paring flush with a finished or near finished surface that I keep the flat side of... err.... flat. It turns out to be surprisingly useful thus. Also, a few otherwise unremarkable bench chisels, kept flat with similar results.