Vibration Research etc

[The Vibration Guy]

Hello All,

I'm a H&S consultant specialising in Harmful Vibration, in particular from power/air tools.
In my time in the role, I have tested thousands of tools, there are not many I haven't seen, and tested to death! I have conducted thousands of interviews with techs from all trades and have built up quite a wealth of knowledge on the subject.
I am now conducting my own research into the prevention of HAVS by reducing vibration at source, in particular DA sanders, although not exclusively.
I'm also woodworker with many years experience including building bespoke kitchens, cabinet making, carpentry etc, although that came to an end in 2007 when I moved into another field.
I have always kept my hands on the tools and am currently building a loft extension with all the furniture to boot.
Always happy to answer any questions on the subject.

 

[TRITON]

I used to have one of those old black and decker sander and it vibrated like hell. 30 mins use and your hand was buzzing after stopping.
I counteracted that with a piece of 10mm closed cell foam(the black/grey stuff)* stuck onto it where you hold it, and it made all the difference.

White finger has long been a problem for anyone using vibration tools like that, mainly in industry where you are in prolonged contact. Manufacturers have made some improvements with rubberized grips, but it always appeared to be a token effort

* This stuff here.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/35390687...XW0PGR&hash=item52667e6b41:g:NRMAAOSwtDFgHkki

 

[The Vibration Guy]

Hello and thanks for the tip!

You're absolutely right and this is certainly an area I am looking into, I have had some good results using similar foam padding, although I haven't found one that will significantly reduce the vibration over the full range of speeds, in fact some prove to make things worse when exposed to certain frequencies, its the same with the so called 'anti-vibration gloves', they may work at some frequencies, but can make things worse at others.

Interestingly, if an interface pad (foam) is added to the sander at high speed, the vibration magnitude significantly increases, whereas on lower speeds it seems to have the opposite effect, however this is on the underside and not held of course.

Speed is certainly a huge factor, I always advise to never sand past the mid point setting as a rule of thumb. I generally see vibration magnitude increasing exponentially as the speed is turned up. Other factors include centralising the sanding disk and interface pad, tool age or heavy prolonged use, upkeep and extraction. Air tools have additional factor that are generally ignored apart from with the more conscientious techs.

More work to be done here for sure, getting my hands on a load of different brands DA's for testing would be awesome, however none have taken me up on the offer so far, and I'm not surprised judging by their wildly optimistic published vibration data!!!

 

[Inspector]

I have hand vibration issues likely stemming from work as an aircraft mechanic tasked with grinding corrosion in the confined spaces in aircraft wings using air powered drills and die grinders. The vibration and cold are a bad combination. Now I use anti vibration gloves and the glove of choice is the Impacto Air Gloves. The gel and foam type far less effective for me. They allow me to use the string trimmer for an hour before tingling sets in verses 5 minutes bare handed. In the shop they are essential for sanding and with the use of a high quality tool like a Mirka Deros which has balancing screws/weights you set for the type of paper/pads make that task tolerable with regular breaks. I wear them for every shaking thing I have to do, even mowing the lawn. Your being on the forum will be helpful to many that are not yet at the stage I am, hopefully with your guidance, never will be. Welcome.

Pete

 

[Sideways]

Please consider creating a thread with a layman's guide to theory and how vibration translates to harm.
Intensity, duration of exposure, frequency, linear or non linear relationships, does the weight of the hand and tightness of grip modify vibration frequency and intensity (presumably yes), does it matter ?
All the stuff that us non specialists might benefit from understanding.

 

[Bingy man]

Again a young lad I’d operate hammer drills , grinders and kango,s etc all day long unaware of the dangers . I recall working on a prison and as the building progressed we had to install ghe cast iron soil stacks in the prison wings and elsewhere. 8-10 hrs a day for weeks on end .. nowadays builders have got it much better thankfully but as usual the older people pay the price ( health wise )

 

[Katomi woodsmith]

Hi welcome
Interesting subject not sure what tools you were wanting to test.
Welcome to the mad house

 

[Amplidyne]

Again a young lad I’d operate hammer drills , grinders and kango,s etc all day long unaware of the dangers . I recall working on a prison and as the building progressed we had to install ghe cast iron soil stacks in the prison wings and elsewhere. 8-10 hrs a day for weeks on end .. nowadays builders have got it much better thankfully but as usual the older people pay the price ( health wise )

I've got one word to say to you.
Asbestos.
All us older types who worked in industry of any sort have most likely been exposed to it.
I remember passing a chunk of it round in class at school back in the 60s!

Could be some useful stuff to learn from The Vibration Guy.
A mate of mine who worked in H & S back over 40 years ago was talking about he risks of vibratory white finger.
Nothing had ever been said to us workers though back then.

 

[Bingy man]

I've got one word to say to you.
Asbestos.
All us older types who worked in industry of any sort have most likely been exposed to it.
I remember passing a chunk of it round in class at school back in the 60s!

Could be some useful stuff to learn from The Vibration Guy.
A mate of mine who worked in H & S back over 40 years ago was talking about he risks of vibratory white finger.
Nothing had ever been said to us workers though back then.

Agreed ,, god only knows what the old time miners and factory workers went through , several old mechanics used to blow out the dust from the brake drums of cars and lorry’s . In another thread I commented on my 1st unofficial job on a demolition site - not sure what was worse- removing all the ( lagging ) from the pipes underground or going back in to cut out said pipes with the acetylene torch but for £15 / day I didn’t know any better and neither did anyone else ..

 

[dickm]

One aspect of vibration damage which has not been mentioned is the possibility of it leading to the condition called Dupuytrens contracture, where your fingers (and in some cases, toes and other body parts) curl up and can only be straightened by surgery. Which I can assure all, is not pleasant! The condition seems particularly prevalent in Nordic countries, and has a strong genetic component, but I'm pretty sure I've read there is a link with vibration injury. In my case, it's hereditary, but using chainsaws, old B&D sanders and the like almost certainly didn't help.
(There was a theory that high alcohol consumption was a cause, but that appears to have been contradicted!0

 

[Fitzroy]

Welcome to the forum. Sanders have always been the worst offenders, as others said after 30mins of sanding my hands would buzz for hours. I bought a decent RO sander a few years back, it was £300, and has an anti vibration design. The difference is unbelievable, i can sand for hours with no noticeable after effect.

 

[The Vibration Guy]

I have hand vibration issues likely stemming from work as an aircraft mechanic tasked with grinding corrosion in the confined spaces in aircraft wings using air powered drills and die grinders. The vibration and cold are a bad combination. Now I use anti vibration gloves and the glove of choice is the Impacto Air Gloves. The gel and foam type far less effective for me. They allow me to use the string trimmer for an hour before tingling sets in verses 5 minutes bare handed. In the shop they are essential for sanding and with the use of a high quality tool like a Mirka Deros which has balancing screws/weights you set for the type of paper/pads make that task tolerable with regular breaks. I wear them for every shaking thing I have to do, even mowing the lawn. Your being on the forum will be helpful to many that are not yet at the stage I am, hopefully with your guidance, never will be. Welcome.

Pete

Hello,

I’m truly sorry to hear you're dealing with this, it’s a shame, I've met many people in similar situations. It’s a difficult issue, and I completely understand.

Air tools are indeed a common culprit, especially when used in cold environments as you’ve pointed out. Keeping your hands warm and dry can certainly make a significant difference!

I’ll look into getting a pair of the Impacto gloves you mentioned. I’ve been considering testing various types of gloves to determine which ones might be best suited to counteract the frequencies of the most problematic tools. If we can identify specific gloves that work well with certain tools, it’s definitely a step in the right direction.

Some of the highest vibration levels I’ve recorded have been with Mirka DA’s. They’re extremely ergonomic and popular among many of the techs I work with. However, not everyone is aware of the importance of the balancing configuration, or they may overlook it due to the frequency of pad changes. The main issue seems to be maintenance, when under heavy commercial use it’s often neglected. Despite how great these tools are, vibration levels increase significantly with prolonged use. Other factors I’ve noticed are compressor pressure and moisture, which also contribute to the issue.

Thanks again for the helpful tips. Stay safe and take care.

 

[The Vibration Guy]

Again a young lad I’d operate hammer drills , grinders and kango,s etc all day long unaware of the dangers . I recall working on a prison and as the building progressed we had to install ghe cast iron soil stacks in the prison wings and elsewhere. 8-10 hrs a day for weeks on end .. nowadays builders have got it much better thankfully but as usual the older people pay the price ( health wise )

A very unfortunate truth, I remember clearly needle-gunning the decks for almost a full month or November up in Scotland, luckily it was a one off! Sorry that your dealing with it, please keep your hands warm and dry and stay away from cheap vibrating tools!!

 

[The Vibration Guy]

Welcome to the forum. Sanders have always been the worst offenders, as others said after 30mins of sanding my hands would buzz for hours. I bought a decent RO sander a few years back, it was £300, and has an anti vibration design. The difference is unbelievable, i can sand for hours with no noticeable after effect.

I'm glad you found a solution that works for you, do you mind sharing what sander you now use?

 

[The Vibration Guy]

Hi welcome
Interesting subject not sure what tools you were wanting to test.
Welcome to the mad house

Hello, I'm mostly interested in good quality DA sanders used in a commercial environment.
Thank you!

 

[The Vibration Guy]

Please consider creating a thread with a layman's guide to theory and how vibration translates to harm.
Intensity, duration of exposure, frequency, linear or non linear relationships, does the weight of the hand and tightness of grip modify vibration frequency and intensity (presumably yes), does it matter ?
All the stuff that us non specialists might benefit from understanding.

Hello,

Thanks for the suggestion, I will give this some thought and put something together for a new thread.

 

[The Vibration Guy]

One aspect of vibration damage which has not been mentioned is the possibility of it leading to the condition called Dupuytrens contracture, where your fingers (and in some cases, toes and other body parts) curl up and can only be straightened by surgery. Which I can assure all, is not pleasant! The condition seems particularly prevalent in Nordic countries, and has a strong genetic component, but I'm pretty sure I've read there is a link with vibration injury. In my case, it's hereditary, but using chainsaws, old B&D sanders and the like almost certainly didn't help.
(There was a theory that high alcohol consumption was a cause, but that appears to have been contradicted!0

Hello,

Thanks for this information, I was unaware of the potential link to vibration, it is a rabbit hole I will travel down. I'm sorry you are dealing with this condition, I have come across it many times in my line of work and my father in law is also a sufferer (He enjoys a glass or red or 3..), I always admire the way he and others works around the issue.

 

[Sideways]

When you mention DA sanders (Double Action, yes ?), could you give two or three examples to help us understand what you mean ?
I find some ambiguity around exactly what's meant by the term that some representative examples would clear up.
One interpretation seems to be a sander with the ability to switch between simple orbital action like an old fashioned finish sander and a modern random orbit sander.
Another talks about a combination of linear (back and forward) with a small element of orbital action.
It would be educational to have a clearer idea.

Thanks

It is not ususual to see a post here on the forum asking for advice about (especially random orbit) sanders. We see recommendations for Festool, Mirka, Makita and Bosch regularly. It would be helpful for threads like these to have some objective idea of what counts as OK / GOOD / EXCELLENT vibration performance so that people can assess this aspect of the tool bearing in mind what they cost to buy.

 

[Bingy man]

A very unfortunate truth, I remember clearly needle-gunning the decks for almost a full month or November up in Scotland, luckily it was a one off! Sorry that your dealing with it, please keep your hands warm and dry and stay away from cheap vibrating tools!!

I always buy the best i can afford , and use the most appropriate tool for the job . Did a fence repair recently for my mate’s brother and the concrete was horrendous some type of bombproof ready mix . Took a whole day to dig 2 holes deep enough to repair it with godfather’s. Don’t know how old it is but had to get the ( big boy out ) and I’m guessing you haven’t tested one of these ..

It’s a large petrol breaker and it’s not for the feint hearted ..

 

[Inspector]

What are the effects or differences between a heavy low frequency vibration tool (jack hammer) compared to a higher lighter frequency vibration tool like an orbital sander? Which causes more lasting damage, how fast and how long of the exposure?

You think you have opened a can of worms yet? I can ask more.

Pete