Very old bandsaw

[Trainee neophyte]

Dust extraction going to be virtually impossible

Dust collection usually will include the original catchment system, available worldwide*. Improved safety guards are easy. Here is an example of a fully refurbished, up-to-date saw which complies in all respects with Greek health and safety requirements.

(*That would be the floor, and/or any passing pair of lungs , in case you were wondering.)

I was considering building a bandsaw to plank logs, but it would seem that a day trip to Italy might be a cheaper, quicker option.

 

[OldWood]

Just be aware where a VFD is concerned that the 'simple' VFD's produce 3 ph at 240vac which only suits a 3 phase motor that has been wired into delta configuration - that is the three windings being wired as a triangle with a phase going to each node. It;s most likely your motor is wired for 380 to 440vac 3 phase and is in star configuration.

I would be wary about reconfiguraing a really old motor from star to delta due to the risk of damaging the wire insulation. Unless all 6 of the coil ends have been brought out for delta/ star starting, you will need to go for one of the more expensive 'boost' VFD's which has a single phase 240vac input and nominlally 415vac 3 phase output.

If this confuses you, please put up photos of the electrics and particularly the motor plate, and some help can be given in this area.

Certainly the response to you indicates the envy that many of us here have for the opportunity to restore something of this ilk. And in that context we all have our own specific areas of knowledge. Myfordman is the real guru on VFD's here and I'm sure he'll be along at some point to either back me up or correct my nonsense!!
Rob

 

[pgrbff]

Just be aware where a VFD is concerned that the 'simple' VFD's produce 3 ph at 240vac which only suits a 3 phase motor that has been wired into delta configuration - that is the three windings being wired as a triangle with a phase going to each node. It;s most likely your motor is wired for 380 to 440vac 3 phase and is in star configuration.

I would be wary about reconfiguraing a really old motor from star to delta due to the risk of damaging the wire insulation. Unless all 6 of the coil ends have been brought out for delta/ star starting, you will need to go for one of the more expensive 'boost' VFD's which has a single phase 240vac input and nominlally 415vac 3 phase output.

If this confuses you, please put up photos of the electrics and particularly the motor plate, and some help can be given in this area.

Certainly the response to you indicates the envy that many of us here have for the opportunity to restore something of this ilk. And in that context we all have our own specific areas of knowledge. Myfordman is the real guru on VFD's here and I'm sure he'll be along at some point to either back me up or correct my nonsense!!
Rob

You'll find the motor plate further up. I had already ordered a VFD but I was sent the wrong one, only 2.2A, and it didn't have brake function, only slow start. It is a Eurotherm 650, new but discontinued model, at very reasonable price. So back to square 1.
I was a little concerned about the old motor, but delta 260V in theory OK.
I know nothing about motors so yes, I will need help with the wiring. I have been trying to get my electrician to come and install two re-start main switches for 1.5 years,

 

[NormanB]

Sorry that I wasn't, I'm by no means a safety preacher but the idea of getting my hair caught in that top wheel scares the s**t out of me. I'd make a cover for it before I'd go anywhere near it.

Perhaps someone without head hair would not fear to tread.

 

[heimlaga]

My bandsaw was likely manufactured in the 1910-s and was originally line shaft driven through a long flat belt running on a pair of fast and loose pulleys.
Somebody else had tried to convert it to motor driven but screwed up everuthing so I got the saw very cheap. Made a proper motor mount and installed duble v-belt pulleys. Welded up a full set of modern blade guards with integral dust collection. Made a new fence and a mitre gauge. Made new ball bearing guides. Had a friend nickel weld a crack in the upper wheel. Had the wheels retyred at a local rubber workshop. Shifted all bearings.
Quite a bit of work but I got a very good and fully modern 600mm industrial grade bandsaw for the price of a low grade benchtop hobby bandsaw.

If you have a bit of time to spare and just a little bit of mechanical inclination there is really no reason not to buy an elderly bandsaw. On the other hand if you totally lack time or mechanical talent it s not a very suitable project for you.

Band saws older than mine usually have white metal (babbitt) bearings but I have poured such bearings ad scraped them to fit at home and know that it is perfectly feasible though rather laborious.

 

[clogs]

heimlaga
ur a man after my own heart....
keep the old ones going........your's will still be here working in another 100 years......
money well spent I'd say.....

 

[OldWood]

You'll find the motor plate further up. I had already ordered a VFD but I was sent the wrong one, only 2.2A, and it didn't have brake function, only slow start. It is a Eurotherm 650, new but discontinued model, at very reasonable price. So back to square 1.
I was a little concerned about the old motor, but delta 260V in theory OK.
I know nothing about motors so yes, I will need help with the wiring. I have been trying to get my electrician to come and install two re-start main switches for 1.5 years,

Sorry I missed the earlier posting with the motor plate. You are in luck there - a lot of older motors don't have the option. Having searched out where you are, you look pretty rural so I hope your electrician is up to VHD's and the like. He should check that the motor is linked correctly for Delta.

I haven't looked but I am sure that there is plenty of guidance on the web for doing the wiring you require. I was in electronics so wiring these sort of things plus nice control panels is no problem for me.
Best of luck
Rob

 

[pgrbff]

Found an extremely helpful source of inverters. I called them yesterday, in the UK, must have spent 40 minutes helping me, then called me back in the Italy this morning to add something they had missed. Even told me how I might program a unit I already have which is not quite right for the job so that I might not have to splash out on another. Am I allowed to thank them on the forum?

 

[pgrbff]

My bandsaw was likely manufactured in the 1910-s and was originally line shaft driven through a long flat belt running on a pair of fast and loose pulleys.
Somebody else had tried to convert it to motor driven but screwed up everuthing so I got the saw very cheap. Made a proper motor mount and installed duble v-belt pulleys. Welded up a full set of modern blade guards with integral dust collection. Made a new fence and a mitre gauge. Made new ball bearing guides. Had a friend nickel weld a crack in the upper wheel. Had the wheels retyred at a local rubber workshop. Shifted all bearings.
Quite a bit of work but I got a very good and fully modern 600mm industrial grade bandsaw for the price of a low grade benchtop hobby bandsaw.

If you have a bit of time to spare and just a little bit of mechanical inclination there is really no reason not to buy an elderly bandsaw. On the other hand if you totally lack time or mechanical talent it s not a very suitable project for you.

Band saws older than mine usually have white metal (babbitt) bearings but I have poured such bearings ad scraped them to fit at home and know that it is perfectly feasible though rather laborious.

I bet she was prettier before you got your hands on her.

 

[heimlaga]

I bet she was prettier before you got your hands on her.

The cast iron guards were indeed pretty but the limited protection they offered was not enough for me to feel anywhere near safe around it nor for any insurance to cover a possible accident. The old guards were also very badly cracked and nickel welding them back together with pieces of plate forged to substitute missing pieces would have been quite an undertaking. Making patterns and casting new guards in sand moulds would probably have been both easier and cheaper....... and castings don't come cheap.
I put the old guards in storage in a corner of a barn in case somebody wants to do a museum restoration at some point. The new guards are bolted to the same old holes in the frame as the old guards were. The motor mount was bolted through the holes drilled by the chap who made the previous flawed motor mount.
I just had to drill and tap one single M12 hole in the frame for the whole conversion. No damage done..... or?

 

[Ttrees]

Hello
Had a quick look at the VFD manual, which frame type is it?
Frame 2 is rated at 1.1 - 1.5kW.
Your motor is rated at 5 amps at 260 volts
I would guess that means its around 2 hp or 1.5 kW?
It looks around that size to me, but its hard to get an exact idea of the size in the first photo.
I believe you can dereate your motor
to 1.5 kW if that's the 1.5kW size what VFD you have.
I would think its possible on a fancy VFD like that.



Have you read Bob's induction motor and VFD treatise?

You don't need an emergency stop braking function, which needs a braking resistor. (dynamic breaking)
There should be (coasting stop) in-built braking capacity which is adjustable in seconds,
as is the same adjust-ability you have with the soft starting.(ramp up time)
Offhand, I think I have my saw which has cast iron 24" wheels set to stop in 7 seconds, I have all my parameters written down on a card somewhere.

If your VFD is actually the correct one, I would make a metal cabinet for it, and depending on what switch gear you want.
You need buttons for the machine,
What you see in the photo of my machine is a green start push button
and a stop button you see on the machine is a twist lock pushbutton
of the NC type.
You can look around for mushroom style twist lock for similar money.
Alternatively you could buy a button station but thats about 15 quid at the least, or just a toggle or latching switch instead.
A separate start button, and a stop button (s) is called three wire control.
A single toggle switch or push on/push off (latching switch) is called two wire control.
Your choice...


Type this into the ebay search bar
1Pcs Push Button Switch xb2-ba31

1Pcs Push Button Switch xb2-ba31 | eBay
1Pcs a14021900ux0062 Push Button Switch. We are committed to resolve all issues in a friendly and satisfactory manner. Overall size(approx.).

www.ebay.co.uk





The start pushbutton will need to be NO (normally open circuit)
and the stop button will need to be NC (normally closed circuit)

Concerning safety for yourself...
Make sure when hooking up the VFD that no blade is installed on the saw
as it has a 50/50 chance of running backwards.
To change that, swap any two of the three "hots" from the motor around, but beware!....
Those capacitors hold a LETHAL charge long after being unplugged!
so make sure you have waited for them to have drained off fully before touching anything!

Concerning safety for your motor....
Make sure you program the motor commands (parameters) correctly...
50 hz is what we use in Europe, relating to speed.
And make sure you have your pole number to the correct RPM as you have a 4 pole motor I believe, this relates to speed also
You don't want to cook your motor running it way past its designed RPM

I've never seen a 260 volt motor but it states its dual voltage.
I have programmed 220 and 240 volts into my machine to see any difference and never noticed anything, so I imagine you could just set it to 240 and it would be sound.
Bob's write up explains the swapping of the straps over to change between both star and delta.

Tom

 

[pgrbff]

Hello
Had a quick look at the VFD manual, which frame type is it?
Frame 2 is rated at 1.1 - 1.5kW.
Your motor is rated at 5 amps at 260 volts
I would guess that means its around 2 hp or 1.5 kW?
It looks around that size to me, but its hard to get an exact idea of the size in the first photo.
I believe you can dereate your motor
to 1.5 kW if that's the 1.5kW size what VFD you have.
I would think its possible on a fancy VFD like that.

I'm afraid I have been unable to determine which Frame it is, I include an image of the plate below. I think it is quite old but I'm told has never been used, although the seller is giving me good reason to believe he is not quite as honest as he first appeared. I had assumed that at 2.2 A it would be undersized. I was told I could change the frequency? So that I would get full torque up to a certain point but then it would drop off?. Too complicated for me.
The seller said you couldn't program it with brake but soft start would be possible. I was told by an incredibly helpful shop that I shouldn't have problems with inrush.
I will surely need someone to check the wiring and hopefully as I will be running at 230 wont have problems with the winding insulation, as it is such an old motor.
I will start looking out for switches.

Edit.

FRAME 1 unfortunately
motor appears to be 2 hp (cav is probably short for horse in Italian)

 

[pgrbff]

My bandsaw was likely manufactured in the 1910-s and was originally line shaft driven through a long flat belt running on a pair of fast and loose pulleys.
Somebody else had tried to convert it to motor driven but screwed up everuthing so I got the saw very cheap. Made a proper motor mount and installed duble v-belt pulleys. Welded up a full set of modern blade guards with integral dust collection. Made a new fence and a mitre gauge. Made new ball bearing guides. Had a friend nickel weld a crack in the upper wheel. Had the wheels retyred at a local rubber workshop. Shifted all bearings.
Quite a bit of work but I got a very good and fully modern 600mm industrial grade bandsaw for the price of a low grade benchtop hobby bandsaw.

If you have a bit of time to spare and just a little bit of mechanical inclination there is really no reason not to buy an elderly bandsaw. On the other hand if you totally lack time or mechanical talent it s not a very suitable project for you.

Band saws older than mine usually have white metal (babbitt) bearings but I have poured such bearings ad scraped them to fit at home and know that it is perfectly feasible though rather laborious.

Do you have a picture of the original?

 

[Ttrees]

Not sure if you can get your money back...
If the ad directly stated that it was rated for a 2 hp motor then you should be able to...
It seems you need to go shopping for another VFD
If you're looking for cheap VFD's new, then make sure that it is single phase input
and that it states the dimensions to be clear that it's not one of those mini ones the size of the palm of your hand.
You might be able to tell the normal sized ones from the minis if you look at the back, the larger drives have a fully enclosed in heat sink...
i.e, you won't be able to see the finned plate of aluminium.

I chose the (normal sized) Isacon/askpower VFD as a replacement
for my possibly fake version, of the Huanyang...
Possibly fake as there is no wires for a resistor... see youtube hunayang dynamic breaking.

it has the same serial number on both, and the only difference is the Huanyang has more very technical parameters (which wont be of any use for a bandsaw)

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/knockoff-huanyang-2-2kw-vfd.107063/#lg=post-1166013&slide=4
The Huanyangs of all types have a fan running all the time see youtube shut up VFD to see how you like the noise, I would hate to go back.

The Isacon/askpower is one to consider, as it is quiet...
I believe I could get three wire control to work now, by some parameters that got by me whilst studying the thorough Huanyang manual.

I got some tips from a friendly Creeker that you can designate the switch terminals for whatever you want, so if one dosen't work, use a different port.
That's probably the same as the Isacon/askpower, I must find the manual for it.

Wait much longer for these drives to bleed off after being unplugged,
I'd say many pro's would be double cautious about that!

Another thing if running that saw, that's if you buy it, and sort it out...
I have only heard recently.
If the blade is exposed, or possibly just on any very large machine...
that its not good practice to stand on the opposite side of the table to the column
In case a blade snaps.
Stay facing the wheels like a dartboard instead, so you are away from a possible projectile.

Tom

 

[MusicMan]

Re the guards - I'd recommend polycarbonate rather than perspex as it is much tougher and unlikely to shatter if something hits it at high speed.

 

[pgrbff]

I don't think it was deliberate, and I paid with Paypal, so I could open a case. But I'd prefer to sort it amicably.
I'm looking at a CT Unidrive M101 1.1kW 230V 1ph to 3ph AC Inverter Drive, DBr, C3 EMC, it seems a fair price although I think I will need an enclosure. Would a saw of this age be braked? I imagine not. A brake resistor is a whopping £40?
I have every intention of buying it, my problem at the moment is getting it home. I am very remote, it is very heavy, we have 60cm of snow and I have no idea how I'm going to move it when I get it home. The seller says he'll keep it for me, I'd be happy paying for it straight away but in Italy that is more than a bit risky.
thank you all for your continued and most valuable help.

 

[Ttrees]

My cheapie 100 quid VFD works great for me, the in built breaking capacity stops quick enough for my liking,
and I am not sure I would want dynamic braking on that saw, without making a guard for it.
As for a cheap braking resistor I believe you could use a hair dryer like this one used on a Sauer and Steiner thread

 

[pgrbff]

Clever idea. I understand the CT unidrive is a good make? The price is just over the £100 mark.

 

[Ttrees]

I wouldn't know how to tell a fancy VFD from a cheaper one
apart from having more bells and whistles.
What's not obvious to a joe soap like myself is the protection it will offer if
your motor if you happen to bog your machine down and keep going.

Depending if your doing very heavy work or using a vector type VFD for a lathe on slower than recommended speeds (if I'm not mistaken on that)
it would make sense to get a good one.
Bob Minchin (myfordman) has written about these before.

Where are you finding these ultra cheap drives?
All the ones on the bay I ever seen of a good make were secondhand
and 3 phase in only.

As for the bandsaw, I'd try and secure that deal
Can you pay half now and take half now?

Good luck with your purchase
Tom

 

[pgrbff]

I'm happy to pay it all, what I'm concerned about is the seller, and him selling it again to someone else. That could be quite likely over here, unfortunately.
I'm going to try and go and see him on Monday.
The person who sold me the Eurotherm, new but discontinued, at a very reasonable price has now agreed to pay me back the postage, I will keep it and maybe I will sell it or keep it in case I find another 3 phase machine, albeit smaller.
He recommended his supplier, who could not have been more helpful, that is why further up I asked if I could mention his company. He even called me back in Italy the day after because he had forgotten to mention something. He then went on to insist he help me test the Eurotherm I had bought before he sold me another bigger unit. As I say, he was brilliant.