Cheshirechappie
Established Member
Any of them, but non-bedrock specifically.
Veritas PMV-II Plane Blades
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Cheshirechappie":f7kosmcf said:
See above. I have no advice for a Bedrock. I don't own one. I suppose It theoretically would tolerate a little more frog projection to close the mouth of the plane. Other than that, everything I said above.
Check the plane's sole for twist. If it's twisted you'll need to address the sole.
Harbo":18ghxgol said:
Lee Valley, Holtey, and 1960s Stanley (UK I presume). Spend a little more money for an older U.S. made Stanley and then let's revisit the matter. With those other fine planes in the rotation it might make sense to drop it altogether. What, really, would be the point in sweating the performance of a 1960s Stanley UK plane with these other planes available?
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Chatter in the sense of those fine close parallel lines you get when you work a well set up plane hard, is probably unavoidable - except by working it less hard.
The other sorts of chatter seem to be down to badly supported workpiece, badly set up plane, etc, etc, Basically doing it wrong and hence avoidable.
PS those fine parallel lines I first encountered in glazing rebates of Victorian and older windows. At first I thought they were some sort of machine roller lines (perfect and regular like a thicknesser feed roller). Then I found you could get them by working a rebate plane hard - cuts with a buzz or zip noise.
The other sorts of chatter seem to be down to badly supported workpiece, badly set up plane, etc, etc, Basically doing it wrong and hence avoidable.
PS those fine parallel lines I first encountered in glazing rebates of Victorian and older windows. At first I thought they were some sort of machine roller lines (perfect and regular like a thicknesser feed roller). Then I found you could get them by working a rebate plane hard - cuts with a buzz or zip noise.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I think he is like a lot of us - in a state of constant dialogue with himself about how things are done - so sometimes he says/tries one thing, sometimes another. That's OK nobody should expect a definitive final answer to most of these issues - it's a process.woodbrains":2vw0qb6g said:
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
It wasn't a trick question, and I wasn't trying to be smart@rse - I'm not trying to trip anybody up.
Many moons ago, I was using my 1980s Record 07 (standard iron, standard capiron) to true up some beech. Hard stuff, but by no means as hard as some of the jungle-woods. No matter what I did, it chattered at the beginning of the stroke (never previously had that problem on the redwood and mahogany I'd worked before). Tried sharpening it - same. Capiron nicely fitted? Check. Skewing the cut on entry? Yep, tried that - still chattered. Shallower depth of cut? Well - that worked, but I was down to wispy shavings by the time it did - not much good for trying up several boards for a project; I'd have been there for weeks. Frog set to give a fine mouth? Frog set level with the back of the mouth? Yep - tried both. Planing slowly with heavy downward pressure? Yep, tried that. Chattered either way.
I solved that one in the end by just ignoring the chatter when trying up the boards, and taking it out with a very fine-set smoothing plane (brand new Lie Nielsen, not long after they were first available in the UK).
A year or so later, I fitted the 07 with a newly-released Axminster Victor iron - that's a Clifton iron before they were called Clifton. I've never had a chatter problem with that plane since, no matter what I've planed with it. My conclusion is that Bailey-type planes in standard configuration are prone to chatter when doing real work on harder woods.
Now. I'm only an amateur, and may well be doing it all wrong. However, I can only report my own experience. A 1980s Record 07 with standard iron and cap-iron chattered when working beech no matter what I fiddled with frog settings, planing methods etc., but when fitted with a slightly thicker iron it hasn't chattered since.
What was I doing wrong?
Many moons ago, I was using my 1980s Record 07 (standard iron, standard capiron) to true up some beech. Hard stuff, but by no means as hard as some of the jungle-woods. No matter what I did, it chattered at the beginning of the stroke (never previously had that problem on the redwood and mahogany I'd worked before). Tried sharpening it - same. Capiron nicely fitted? Check. Skewing the cut on entry? Yep, tried that - still chattered. Shallower depth of cut? Well - that worked, but I was down to wispy shavings by the time it did - not much good for trying up several boards for a project; I'd have been there for weeks. Frog set to give a fine mouth? Frog set level with the back of the mouth? Yep - tried both. Planing slowly with heavy downward pressure? Yep, tried that. Chattered either way.
I solved that one in the end by just ignoring the chatter when trying up the boards, and taking it out with a very fine-set smoothing plane (brand new Lie Nielsen, not long after they were first available in the UK).
A year or so later, I fitted the 07 with a newly-released Axminster Victor iron - that's a Clifton iron before they were called Clifton. I've never had a chatter problem with that plane since, no matter what I've planed with it. My conclusion is that Bailey-type planes in standard configuration are prone to chatter when doing real work on harder woods.
Now. I'm only an amateur, and may well be doing it all wrong. However, I can only report my own experience. A 1980s Record 07 with standard iron and cap-iron chattered when working beech no matter what I fiddled with frog settings, planing methods etc., but when fitted with a slightly thicker iron it hasn't chattered since.
What was I doing wrong?
I've used my 'standard' '70's 5.5 on all sorts of hardwood - Euro Box, Hornbeam, Laburnum, Oak, Beech, Bubinga, Indian Rosewood, Braz. Rosewood, Ebony, African Blackwood.
It's certainly not prone to chatter, although it does have an old but thin (2 mm's) replacement Acorn blade.
It's certainly not prone to chatter, although it does have an old but thin (2 mm's) replacement Acorn blade.
Cheshirechappie":37a09xpo said:
Cap iron was shaped to the blade's curve and set close? Did you adjust the lever cap screw to change the pressure (up or down?) Change the frog's position? I'm not being facetious when I say that I believe there was an adjustment or change in technique that would have worked.
I came into the craft when the only replacement cutters readily available were the sames ones we already had in the plane. No help there. That doesn't help you, but I guess it changed my outlook a bit.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Dunno - but you fixed it! Could have been the blade, the sharpening, the set, the wood, your technique.Cheshirechappie":3uewlhae said:
I don't really get chatter - or rather, if I do I stop and start again. If the board is a bit convex then you might get a skip if you go for a full cut so you have to take out the middle first, and so on. Many variables.
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
MIGNAL":100mc9rk said:
So your experience is different to mine. Jacob (above) reckons it's almost inevitable when working a plane hard - certainly what I found on the beech, but not since I've fitted a slightly thicker iron. Charles reckons there's always a way to avoid it, even with standard irons.
Maybe we should all just stick to our own ways and preferences, and stop bickering about it?
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Only that type 1 chatter (Sellers 1st photo). The other sort is you doing it wrongly I'm afraid.Cheshirechappie":2mf2he9b said:
Cheshirechappie":1sujdf76 said:
I've experienced chatter with Woodies on 'hard' timber. A hollow on the sole (just in front of the mouth) also results in poor performance, with a tendency for the Plane to skip. All my Planes have been fettled, except the 5.5 (which may have been) and the Stanley SW.
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
Jacob":1xmtpqpc said:
Yep - that 'type 1' (Sellers 1st photo) was the sort I was referring to. Lots of very shallow parallel lines about 1/8" apart. I wasn't getting the Sellers type 2 second photo sort.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Well if it's cutting OK (except for the chatter) then reserve a few slower careful strokes to finish off smooth without the chatter. Perhaps resharpen and set for the final smoothing.Cheshirechappie":f75ywywe said:
if that doesn't work use a different plane.
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
Well, I don't need to bother, now. Since it's had the Victor iron in it it hasn't chattered at all, not even type 1.
Maybe it's down to ways of working. Some just accept (type 1) chatter as 'one of those things' when working a plane hardish on harder woods, and remove the marks later with a different plane, or scraper, or sander. Other people don't want the type 1 chatter at all, and use other means - thicker iron, or Charles' tweeks, to avoid it. Maybe some planes - like Mignal's 5 1/2 - are just not prone to it.
Different people, different ways - as D.H.Lawrence once wrote.
Maybe it's down to ways of working. Some just accept (type 1) chatter as 'one of those things' when working a plane hardish on harder woods, and remove the marks later with a different plane, or scraper, or sander. Other people don't want the type 1 chatter at all, and use other means - thicker iron, or Charles' tweeks, to avoid it. Maybe some planes - like Mignal's 5 1/2 - are just not prone to it.
Different people, different ways - as D.H.Lawrence once wrote.
Cheshirechappie":13cyy89d said:
To the 'Victor' go the spoils....
Tony Zaffuto
Established Member
What is interesting is that this is a discussion of actually working wood!
What works for one may not work (as easily) for another. Many of us here are not professionals and many of us here don't even have the time to learn to be accomplished hobbyists. So (in my case) it comes down to what can do the job. If I had the time, I would love to spend a week taking a course taught by Paul Sellers, though I would no doubt be a bit confused by what he may say and what he may actually do!
Years ago, when I worked for a living (started a manufacturing business (powdered metal parts) in 1989) I was a journeyman carpenter, and served a 4 year apprenticeship. This thread reminds me greatly of coffee and lunch break discussions I enjoyed among the older, skilled workers. All had their methods, all defended their methods as being the correct, only method. Discussions became really heated, but ended the moment the break time did and all returned to work. From the moment on, it was all for one and one for all. For that, though sometimes I may not agree with some posts here, I believe the intent is good and that is guidance in the skills that many have here and freely share.
There is not a single person in this thread that I would not enjoy meeting in person and listening to their methods of work!
What works for one may not work (as easily) for another. Many of us here are not professionals and many of us here don't even have the time to learn to be accomplished hobbyists. So (in my case) it comes down to what can do the job. If I had the time, I would love to spend a week taking a course taught by Paul Sellers, though I would no doubt be a bit confused by what he may say and what he may actually do!
Years ago, when I worked for a living (started a manufacturing business (powdered metal parts) in 1989) I was a journeyman carpenter, and served a 4 year apprenticeship. This thread reminds me greatly of coffee and lunch break discussions I enjoyed among the older, skilled workers. All had their methods, all defended their methods as being the correct, only method. Discussions became really heated, but ended the moment the break time did and all returned to work. From the moment on, it was all for one and one for all. For that, though sometimes I may not agree with some posts here, I believe the intent is good and that is guidance in the skills that many have here and freely share.
There is not a single person in this thread that I would not enjoy meeting in person and listening to their methods of work!
Jeff Gorman on chatter:
"Chatter is evidence of a plane's misbehaviour that produces regularly spaced very shallow marks very roughly 1mm apart or less. Look for a slack lever cam failing to properly hold down the cutting iron. In fact, the only way I could get my Stanley smoother to do this was to so loosen the lever cap screw that the lever cap almost rattled as I worked. [emphasis added] The lever cap setting screw should be so adjusted that one can only just release the lever with finger and thumb and the feed wheel can be conveniently operated. Naturally, the cap iron should be a good fit against the cutting iron."
http://www.amgron.clara.net/skitterchatter63.html
"Chatter is evidence of a plane's misbehaviour that produces regularly spaced very shallow marks very roughly 1mm apart or less. Look for a slack lever cam failing to properly hold down the cutting iron. In fact, the only way I could get my Stanley smoother to do this was to so loosen the lever cap screw that the lever cap almost rattled as I worked. [emphasis added] The lever cap setting screw should be so adjusted that one can only just release the lever with finger and thumb and the feed wheel can be conveniently operated. Naturally, the cap iron should be a good fit against the cutting iron."
http://www.amgron.clara.net/skitterchatter63.html
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Yep - it's down to "marginal gains" a la Team Sky- working on all details of what you have rather than looking for single solutions.Cheshirechappie":30h6ydk3 said:
So PMV-II is unlikely to help our OP (he has problems sharpening anyway, not to mention the problem of being an offensive twerp :roll: ).
And ever finer grits won't help anyone who can't get a working edge with coarser grits... and so on.
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
Jacob":3iz3m0p0 said:
In making reference to 'problems sharpening', I think you may have confused the OP with another poster. I'm sure we'll all ignore the slight aberration of a regular member who never insults others insulting another.
Out of vague interest (because I'm not in the market for a replacement plane iron) I had a quick whizz through what was available. Sources of information were APTC and Workshop Heaven, so whilst not a complete survey, probably sweeps up most of what's available. I looked at the prices and specifications of 2" Bailey-type bench plane irons, to get a fair comparison.
Cheapest are the Stanley like-for-like replacements, thin (2mm?), and about a tenner. Then there's the Quangsheng water-hardening thicker (3mm) iron at just under £20. Next, Ray Iles thicker O1 iron at £25 plus, and then the Veritas, Lie-Nielsen and Ray Iles harder steels irons and the Clifton multiple-strike forged O1 iron at about £40 - £50 (LV and LN are A2, Ray Iles is D2). Then the thinner Japanese laminated iron at close to £60, and the LV PMV-11 at just over £60.
That's quite a selection, and a fair range of specifications, too. Should be something in there for all tastes. What slightly surprised me is that I'd always thought of Cliffie irons as being expensive relative to the competition, but it seems they're in about the same parish on price. Obviously, there's a premium for PMV-11, but not much over the thin Japanese laminated iron.
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